The Psaltic Art and influences upon it from Turkish music

[Deacon]

For those following along at home, compare the setting of the First Mode Kekragarion by Petros Lampadarios to the one by Petros Byzantios in Add MS 17718 (British Library, London).

The paternity of the phrase "εν τώ κεκραγέναι με προς σέ" in Ioannes' Anastasimatarion was also Byzantios', but not in the same place. He uses this thesis in "θυσία εσπερινή" of his Κατευθυνθήτω. I didn't mention that because I believe that Petros Byzantios' Kegragaria were not so widely used compared to the ones that were composed "κατά μίμησιν του Βυζαντίου". Nevertheless, he is responsible for these additions-alternations.

 

[Deacon]

While I'm no musicologist to the extent any of you are

I am not a musicologist either...

I would question the accuracy of this statement

I promise to write some things about that in order to clarify me statement. You know, it's not easy for me to support any of these statements talking and writing in English. I forget to mention critical information while struggling to express myself accurately in a language other than Greek.

Ephesios Polyeleos was not the first mathima with the use of a mode called β' διατονικός. Lampadarios' doxologia was the first known case. But before that we have the case of the 2nd verse of Bereketis' Theotoke Parthene, which is written in the place of b' mode and with a starting martyria of b' but was transcribed in legetos.

I 'll write as soon as I can.

 

[Shota]

For those following along at home, compare the setting of the First Mode Kekragarion by Petros Lampadarios to the one by Petros Byzantios in Add MS 17718 (British Library, London).

Kekragarion of Petros Byzantios from another ms is available here.

Quite telling is the version by Antonios Lampadarios transcribed by Panagiotis Kiltzanidis (see here for the book). Also note the phrase "καὶ παράσχου ἡμῖν" from the sticheron "Τὰς ἑσπερινὰς ἡμῶν εὐχάς".

 

[Deacon]

Kekragarion of Petros Byzantios from another ms is available here.

Quite telling is the version by Antonios Lampadarios transcribed by Panagiotis Kiltzanidis (see here for the book). Also note the phrase "καὶ παράσχου ἡμῖν" from the sticheron "Τὰς ἑσπερινὰς ἡμῶν εὐχάς".

Take a look at Δι ύφεσις above "κατευθυνθήτω" and "ως θυμίαμα".:wink:

 

[Emmanouil Giannopoulos]

Maybe in pages 106-109 of this article somebody could find some more information on this topic. From this website.

 

[Deacon]

Maybe in pages 106-109 of this article somebody could find some more information on this topic. From this website.

Thank you for this valuable input. I wasn't aware of this article but it's nice to have it now as a basis.

 

[Deacon]

An older post here with some additional information.

I fixed the link. http://analogion.gr/f/39/46, see the 5th post.

 

[Deacon]

I would question the accuracy of this statement, on the basis of extent scores such as Petros Ephesios' Ochtoechos Polyeleos (Exomologeisthe) which presents a "2nd Mode Diatonic" as "legetos"

I 've already said that we see the same term in an earlier composition, in Petros Lampadarios' doxologia. The various mss usually have it in legetos, but the printed Anthologiai of the New Method are placing it in "β' διατονικός".

Lets take some things from the start: Legetos is a mesos mode. That means, it is created from a kyrios mode by descending two voices down. Kyrios in this instance is agia. A mesos mode has a very specific behaviour, when examined through the principals of Byzantine-post Byzantine music theory. It tends to show the mode that it is created from, in this case agia. When we study older mss, we see that there is no melos composed in legetos as a starting martyria and as an independent mode. Legetos is mainly found inside mathemata of agia and plagal d' as a structural "habit". (Edit: Even inside the Heirmologion of 17th century, all hermoi or prosomoia that have legetos' idea start from the base of agia).

The critical question now is: How can a mesos mode be characterized with a name of a kyrios mode (b' diatonic, that is)?
A kyrios mode is recognised by its habit to descend to its plagal, in this case, b' mode descends 4 down to plagal b'. On the other hand, a plagal mode is known to systematically "visit" its kyrios, ascending 4 up.

I think it's clear now that the mathemata mentioned above, are not successfully assigned to b' mode, because they don't tend to go 4 voices down, having an already low base note. On the other hand, they unfold their melos upwards, usually beyond agia. If they belong to a specific mode, that would be either legetos, or plagal b' diatonic (or eso b' diatonic, same thing). How can we decide where they belong?

Here is the little "secret" that could help us understand the invention of the term "b' diatonic":

When legetos ascends beyond Δι, its shows the "idea" of agia papadike, exactly because it's a mesos mode and it has to show the "idea" of its kyrios. That means we have to suggest a change of the current ison from Βου to Δι. We can trace this behaviour in the mathemata mentioned above. But we also see a slightly different behaviour in some cases that makes things more complicated. Melos touches Ζω' without the "idea" of agia but with an ison (supposed to be) steadily on Βου. The perfect example is the 2nd verse of Bereketis' Theotoke Parthene, but see also Petros' doxologia and the phrases "εις τον αιώνα" (with Βου' υφεσις that clarifies things and suggests a current base on Βου), "εν τη ημέρα ταύτη" and many others. This is an alternation of legetos' idea that moves it away from a strict mesos' mode structure. This behaviour was unknown before the late 17th century. When a melos was assigned to b' mode it ought to have a specific structure and a chromatic scale. But with Bereketis' "χαίρε κεχαριτωμένη" things changed. Now, there must be a mode on the base of b' but with diatonic scale and without the behaviour of a mesos mode like legetos. Where do we find such behaviour in music? Eastern music already had at that time a mode structure, fully compatible with these preconditions. There you are...

One of the most characteristic examples of newer compositions with this behaviour is the 2nd stasis of typika, as they are chanted in Mount Athos. Some people assign them to barys, but others in legetos. Eso (or plagal) b' diatonic would be more accurate as I see it.

Sorry for the huge post. It was very difficult for me to express my thinking in English. I could say more, but that would be too far-fetched...

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Folks, to take 2-3 neumes, a phrase here and there, a very rare cadence that is NOT in psaltic practice from the 1900s onwards and to build a case that Byzante Chant is.....derived from.....makam (!) is disingenious and certainly revisionist with very poor and sophistic arguments.

Try looking at it from the opposite side and pehaps a more balanced view will emerge.

I do not propose that some of the UNIQUE modulations in SPECIFIC parts of a RARE number of hymns are borrowed from, or influenced by makam, but to jump the gun and to make the very untenable thesis that Byzantine chant is SIGNIFICANTLY influenced by makam is disingenious.


NG.

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Dear Deacon:

You make this long argument:

"Here is the little "secret" that could help us understand the invention of the term "b' diatonic":

When legetos ascends beyond Δι, its shows the "idea" of agia papadike, exactly because it's a mesos mode and it has to show the "idea" of its kyrios. That means we have to suggest a change of the current ison from Βου to Δι. We can trace this behaviour in the mathemata mentioned above. But we also see a slightly different behaviour in some cases that makes things more complicated. Melos touches Ζω' without the "idea" of agia but with an ison (supposed to be) steadily on Βου. The perfect example is the 2nd verse of Bereketis' Theotoke Parthene, but see also Petros' doxologia and the phrases "εις τον αιώνα" (with Βου' υφεσις that clarifies things and suggests a current base on Βου), "εν τη ημέρα ταύτη" and many others. This is an alternation of legetos' idea that moves it away from a strict mesos' mode structure. This behaviour was unknown before the late 17th century. When a melos was assigned to b' mode it ought to have a specific structure and a chromatic scale. But with Bereketis' "χαίρε κεχαριτωμένη" things changed. Now, there must be a mode on the base of b' but with diatonic scale and without the behaviour of a mesos mode like legetos. Where do we find such behaviour in music? Eastern music already had at that time a mode structure, fully compatible with these preconditions. There you are..."

There are no "secrets" just like there is no "mystery"-

When all one needs to know is that the diatonic genus as a GENUS exhibits and dictates this behaviour without having to resort to "makamisation" of each of the diatonic tones.

If one understands that the diatonic GENUS has certain behaviors one does not need to invoke long and convoluted explanations.

It's quite simple.

NG

 

[Deacon]

Folks, to take 2-3 neumes, a phrase here and there, a very rare cadence that is NOT in psaltic practice from the 1900s onwards

Psaltic practise from 1900s onwards is more related to makam than all the mathemata examined here...

and to build a case that Byzante Chant is.....derived from.....makam (!)

Who said that?! Oh please... You (deliberately?) distort the meaning of all that was written in this thread. To spot influences from 17th century onwards is not building a "case that Byzantine Chant is derived from makam"...

Try looking at it from the opposite side and pehaps a more balanced view will emerge.

You should try this too.

I do not propose that some of the UNIQUE modulations in SPECIFIC parts of a RARE number of hymns are borrowed from, or influenced by makam, but to jump the gun and to make the very untenable thesis that Byzantine chant is SIGNIFICANTLY influenced by makam is disingenious.

I would like to inform you that ecclesiastical music of the 18th-19th century is not considered "Byzantine Chant" but its successor. It is more of an "echo". And thanks for the advice, but I prefer to be "disingenious" than disingenuous with our music past.

 

[Shota]

There is a long thread on Legetos in the Greek part of the forum (to get a quick overview, I would advise to read it from the end, rather than from the start ). Legetos was a mode that troubled theoretically already Misail Misailidis, as evident from this paper by Ioannis Plemmenos.

 

[Deacon]

There is a long thread on Legetos in the Greek part of the forum (to get a quick overview, I would advise to read it from the end, rather than from the start ). Legetos was a mode that troubled theoretically already Misail Misailidis, as evident from this paper by Ioannis Plemmenos.

Reading Plemmenos' paper and the theoretical thesis of teachers like Karas and others (like Misailides), I see many misconceptions about legetos. No, Legetos is neither a plagal nor a kyrios mode. Its a mesos. And the arrangement of mode bases is ... out of reality in most cases. I don't know where to start...

 

[domesticus]

...

I would like to inform you that ecclesiastical music of the 18th-19th century is not considered "Byzantine Chant" but its successor. It is more of an "echo". And thanks for the advice, but I prefer to be "disingenious" than disingenuous with our music past.

I think the term ''post-Byzantine chant'' is more appropriate , as it is already used for the art in general after 1453 till 1830 or even 1912 for northern Greece.

 

[Shota]

Since there were some questions regarding the practical character of Nektarios the Monk's Mousikos Thisavros, I attach an excerpt from the preface to the book that presents his own perspective on that question.

 

[romanos4]

Reading Plemmenos' paper and the theoretical thesis of teachers like Karas and others (like Misailides), I see many misconceptions about legetos. No, Legetos is neither a plagal nor a kyrios mode. Its a mesos. And the arrangement of mode bases is ... out of reality in most cases. I don't know where to start...

Deacon,

Thank you for your explanations - so how is (new) Sticheraric 4th mode, based on Pa, characterized? Is this legetos? We have intermediate cadences on vou and pa and final cadences on vou. Thinking about hymns in the anastasimatarion, we see phrases that descend below Ni, and certainly ascend to Ni (and perhaps beyond). Then you have things like the long version of "Elampsen" which is from the old sticherarion that only in a few places really seems similar to the 4th mode how see it in the anastasimatarion.

I've seen the aipichima as "A-gi-a" intoned on Pa (which may not mean anything concrete, but it exists nonetheless).

I realize this goes beyond the scope of the thread topic so am happy to move this conversation elsewhere.

Thank you again!

R.

 

[Deacon]

Deacon,

Thank you for your explanations - so how is (new) Sticheraric 4th mode, based on Pa, characterized? Is this legetos? We have intermediate cadences on vou and pa and final cadences on vou. Thinking about hymns in the anastasimatarion, we see phrases that descend below Ni, and certainly ascend to Ni (and perhaps beyond). Then you have things like the long version of "Elampsen" which is from the old sticherarion that only in a few places really seems similar to the 4th mode how see it in the anastasimatarion.

I've seen the aipichima as "A-gi-a" intoned on Pa (which may not mean anything concrete, but it exists nonetheless).

I realize this goes beyond the scope of the thread topic so am happy to move this conversation elsewhere.

Thank you again!

R.

Hi Romanos!

No, 4th Stecheraric is not legetos. It is agia, pure agia. There is some distance between old and new stecherarion but I could not explain more here. Maybe in a new thread. Thanks for following though.

Fr. Nikolaos

 

[Χοιροσφάκτης]

I 've already said that we see the same term in an earlier composition, in Petros Lampadarios' doxologia. The various mss usually have it in legetos, but the printed Anthologiai of the New Method are placing it in "β' διατονικός".

Lets take some things from the start: Legetos is a mesos mode. That means, it is created from a kyrios mode by descending two voices down. Kyrios in this instance is agia. A mesos mode has a very specific behaviour, when examined through the principals of Byzantine-post Byzantine music theory. It tends to show the mode that it is created from, in this case agia. When we study older mss, we see that there is no melos composed in legetos as a starting martyria and as an independent mode. Legetos is mainly found inside mathemata of agia and plagal d' as a structural "habit". (Edit: Even inside the Heirmologion of 17th century, all hermoi or prosomoia that have legetos' idea start from the base of agia).

The critical question now is: How can a mesos mode be characterized with a name of a kyrios mode (b' diatonic, that is)?
A kyrios mode is recognised by its habit to descend to its plagal, in this case, b' mode descends 4 down to plagal b'. On the other hand, a plagal mode is known to systematically "visit" its kyrios, ascending 4 up.

I think it's clear now that the mathemata mentioned above, are not successfully assigned to b' mode, because they don't tend to go 4 voices down, having an already low base note. On the other hand, they unfold their melos upwards, usually beyond agia. If they belong to a specific mode, that would be either legetos, or plagal b' diatonic (or eso b' diatonic, same thing). How can we decide where they belong?

Here is the little "secret" that could help us understand the invention of the term "b' diatonic":

When legetos ascends beyond Δι, its shows the "idea" of agia papadike, exactly because it's a mesos mode and it has to show the "idea" of its kyrios. That means we have to suggest a change of the current ison from Βου to Δι. We can trace this behaviour in the mathemata mentioned above. But we also see a slightly different behaviour in some cases that makes things more complicated. Melos touches Ζω' without the "idea" of agia but with an ison (supposed to be) steadily on Βου. The perfect example is the 2nd verse of Bereketis' Theotoke Parthene, but see also Petros' doxologia and the phrases "εις τον αιώνα" (with Βου' υφεσις that clarifies things and suggests a current base on Βου), "εν τη ημέρα ταύτη" and many others. This is an alternation of legetos' idea that moves it away from a strict mesos' mode structure. This behaviour was unknown before the late 17th century. When a melos was assigned to b' mode it ought to have a specific structure and a chromatic scale. But with Bereketis' "χαίρε κεχαριτωμένη" things changed. Now, there must be a mode on the base of b' but with diatonic scale and without the behaviour of a mesos mode like legetos. Where do we find such behaviour in music? Eastern music already had at that time a mode structure, fully compatible with these preconditions. There you are...

One of the most characteristic examples of newer compositions with this behaviour is the 2nd stasis of typika, as they are chanted in Mount Athos. Some people assign them to barys, but others in legetos. Eso (or plagal) b' diatonic would be more accurate as I see it.

Sorry for the huge post. It was very difficult for me to express my thinking in English. I could say more, but that would be too far-fetched...

I think you should see also this post by Prof. Makris. It seems to clarify certain issues.

 

[Deacon]

I think you should see also this post by Prof. Makris. It seems to clarify certain issues.

Thank you. I 've already seen it (the time it was written). I don't agree with some specific points, though. No, legetos was not a kyrios mode in my opinion. Kyrillos' statement "Ὁ δὲ λέγετος ἔχων τὴν ὕπαρξιν αὐτοῦ ἐκ κυρίων ἦχων,.... πλὴν ὀνομασίαν δευτέρου ἤχου οὐκ ἔδωκαν αὐτῷ, εἰ μὴ μόνος ὁ κὺρ Πέτρος" needs to be examined more closely and from a different point of view.
...
I really wish Mr. Makris was around. I would like to see his and Mr. Arvanitis's opinion on the subject.

 

[Deacon]

Thank you. I 've already seen it (the time it was written). I don't agree with some specific points, though. No, legetos was not a kyrios mode in my opinion. Kyrillos' statement "Ὁ δὲ λέγετος ἔχων τὴν ὕπαρξιν αὐτοῦ ἐκ κυρίων ἦχων,.... πλὴν ὀνομασίαν δευτέρου ἤχου οὐκ ἔδωκαν αὐτῷ, εἰ μὴ μόνος ὁ κὺρ Πέτρος" needs to be examined more closely and from a different point of view.
...
I really wish Mr. Makris was around. I would like to see his and Mr. Arvanitis's opinion on the subject.

Let me explain more clearly. We need to be very careful with the transcription of mr. Karakatsanis. He makes some important mistakes (ex. "τερκικότερον" in later spot, etc), I am sure, not in purpose (we owe him a lot for publishing these books). But first things first:
1. "Εν τω απλώ λέγετος μεν ήχω φυλάτεται άπας ο ήχος αμετάβλητος". This means that legetos is not a chromatic (φθορικός) mode and leaves all modes around him with their complete voices (γεροφωνίαι, according to Konstas)
2. (A new sentence should start here): "Εν τω παρ' ημίν λεγομένω δευτέρω έχων την χρήσιν αυτού διά δύο φθορών, (θεματισμός) και (νενανώ), ούς (εν. ήχους) αν εις χρήσιν λάβη τρέπει εις το ίδιον αυτού φως". This means: Unlike legetos, our known b' mode uses two phthorai to turn any mode taken in use to its "idea".
3. "Οδεύει δε δύο δύο...". Here, he explains very nicely the way "όμοια διφωνία" worked at that time. I don't want to say more on this now.
4. (Here is the hard part) "Ο δε λέγετος έχων την ύπαρξιν αυτού εκ κυρίων ήχων, φυλλάτει αμεταβόλους τας ιδέας πάντων των παραλαμβανομένων ήχων, ον τρόπον και ο κυρ Πέτρος έδειξεν αυτόν κύριον εις το εν βυθώ, και άλλοι παλαιοί διδάσκαλοι εν διαφόροις μαθήμασι, πλην ονομασίαν δευτέρου ήχου ουκ έδωκαν αυτόν, ει μη μόνος ο κυρ Πέτρος". In my opinion, the word "κύριος" in this statement must be interpreted as "μη φθορικός" i.e "διατονικός". The phrase "ον τρόπον και ο κυρ Πέτρος έδειξεν" clears things up. Kyrillos wants to show the difference between the two modes. Legetos is named kyrios here in opposition to b' mode's phthora and not as a mode having a kyrios' mode behaviour. That's why other teachers before Petros didn't give him the name of b' mode, because b' mode was a chromatic and a kyrios mode at that time (and not a diatonic and mesos mode). Beside that, few sentences above, Kyrillos sais "o δε λέγετος [έχει] κατάβασιν εκ του αγια διά δύο κατιουσών" describing the well known apichema of legetos, clearly a mesos mode apichema.

Lets see now, how Kyrillos continues describing legetos and b' mode in his treatise (this part was not uploaded in mr. Makris' post, and it is valuable to better understand Kyrillos' thinking (see Karakatsanis 2004, p. 35):

"Αν δέ τις έρροιτο πώς και τίνι τρόπω του ίσου και των δύο τούτων ήχων ενός και του αυτού όντως;
Του μεν λέγετος οι εν χρήσει γινόμενοι ήχοι, μέσοι, τρίφωνοι και τετράφωνοι, φυλάττονται αμετάβολοι μή εκπίπτοντος του ίσου, του δε παρ' ημίν λεγομένου δευτέρου, έτερον εστί το μέτρον, και άλλον το μέλος.
Ερούμεν ως ανωτέρω, ότι ο λέγετος έχει την ύπαρξιν αυτού εκ κυρίων ήχων, ο δε δεύτερος εστί σύνθετος εκ δύο φθορών, και επειδή αι φθοραί ου συνίστανταί ποτε εξ ολοκλήρου φωνής, αλλ' εξ ημισείας, τούτου ένεκεν έπεται το τοιούτον. Πόθεν δε και πώς γενώντα αι φθοραί... [...] Πώς ούν δυνάμεθα άνευ οργάνου ευρείν δεύτερον, και τρίτον φωνής μη εκπεσόντες; Ει γαρ η ενέργεια αυτού συνεκροτείτο εκ κυρίων φωνών, έκπτωσις του ίσου εν ταις καταλήξεσιν ουκ αν εσυνέβη, και τούτο ουκ επί του δευτέρου μόνου..."

I think it's more clear now.