The Psaltic Art and influences upon it from Turkish music

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
2) "We cannot judge by today's repertory to conclude what was the repertory of the Constantinopolitan chanters in the 19th c.".

Well, if you did not have the opportunity to speak with the psaltae of old time, this might be a potential statement that one could propose. The psaltae of old-time are very clear about what they were taught and what they saw "in action" at the analogion in the late 1800s, early 1900s and that is nothing more than the classical music. The Patriarchal Church was a different matter altogether and even more conservative and strict...The Axion Estin, and Kalophonic hymn material in Nektarios is largely a compilation of "mathimata", and even the monasteries of Athos did not use them all (my personal discussions with the late-blessed Fr. Panaretos of Philotheou).

To give just a little example, are Gerasimos Kanellidis' Leitourgika "classical music"? Would Neleus Kamarados chant only "classical music"?

Already with a quick search one can find a sufficient number of Athonite Axion esti recordings from Nektarios' books, e.g. Filanthidis' Axion esti in Deuteroprotos (Karcigar), the one composed by Anastasios from Parla in Pl. 4, the one by Charalampos Papanikolaou in Pl. 4, the anonymous composition in Pl. 2 and so on. The point is that execution of these melodies requires technical skill and not all Athonites have it. Those that don't have it, also don't chant them (more difficult ones, at least), I presume (in his teaching recording of the Leitourgika in Plagal First by Kanellidis edited by A. Kyriazidis (and of Sarantaekklesiotis' Axion esti in Pl. 1), Fr. Daniel of the Danielaioi brotherhood characteristically remarks that these Leitourgika are πολύ ωραία, but θέλουν μονάχα λίγο μελέτη περισσότερα. That's an Athonite way of saying what is reachable for somebody with a modest musical talent and what is not, I guess :D ). As far as Fr. Panaretos of the blessed memory is concerned, his communication is important, but I don't see why would it contradict what I wrote; Fr. Panaretos himself represents a new trend in Athonite chanting (the new trend is noticeable from 1960s, when the influence of Karamanis, Theodosopoulos and Taliadoros started to be felt, later on with the Simonopetra style on ascendance, and recently also with the invasion of Karas-influenced chanting): he was almost 60 when he went to Athos (thus a very experienced chanter with established repertory and taste) and e.g. in his teaching tapes of the Liturgy melodies he chants not from Nektarios' books, but from Karamanis. And in what qualitative respect do compositions from Karamanis' book, many of which bear makam names, differ from the older ones?

3) "that the older repertory got displaced by newer compositions by Kamarados, Hatziathanasiou, Palasis, Pringos, Stanitsas etc.".

This is true. But this phenomenon became de riguer in Athens largely. Constantinopolitan churches were more conservative.

All the composers I named were Constantinopolitans. And I don't see the point in arguing that their compositions were chanted in Constantinople, because they were (as a little anecdote, (narrated in Tsiounis' book on Stanitsas, I believe) upon becoming Lampadarios at the Patriarchate, Stanitsas got asked by his friends from his Palasis times why he wouldn't chant some mathemata of his teacher, to which he responded (quoting from the memory): "Forget those senseless things. The music is the one we chant at the Patriarchate").

4) Concerning Nicholas of Smyrna: Much of his compositions remained mathimata and were never used in churches in services (personal communication of Matthaios Andreou, student of Vamvoudakis).

Composers/chantors were very careful in introducing new music in the service, however, from the standpoint of teaching, they did not shy from melodies that incorporated elements of Ottoman music/rhythms.

Consider again how much of all this repertory was actually used in churches up until the 1970s. And even today, how many times does one hear Nicholas of Smyrna Cherubic hymns in church practice?

I guess there is no point in doubting that Nikolaos and his successor Misailidis would use Nikolaos' books at the analogion. Now many of Nikolaos' compositions are indeed long mathemata, but others are not and in any case all his compositions bear his distinct style. And when talking about Nikolaos' work, I didn't mean only his Liturgy volume, as you perhaps thought, but also his other books. As far as who would chant what, e.g. every year in Patras the late Metropolitan Nikodimos would use many compositions from Nikolaos' books for Doxastika and Idiomela, especially during the Holy Week period. About Nikolaos' papadic Liturgy pieces: these were chanted where

1) circumstances would allow it (enough time);
2) students of Nikolaos were active;
3) papadic melos hasn't degenerated into improvisation, or displaced completely in favour of other compositions as in the case of the koinonika.

Up until some time ago Athos was such a place, but I guess there too Nikolaos' compositions are destined to eventually disappear.

P.S. When Vamvoudakis included in his book polyphonic pieces (in Byzantine notation) by Bortnyanski, did he do it for training purposes? Or when Andreou chanted Sakellaridis in Canada? The chanters don't live in lab conditions, they adapt or get influenced by the environment, and what was the musical aesthetics of Smyrni is attested by numerous early 20th c. recordings. And that that did influence the Smyrni yphos is something that already Boudouris sensed.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
I believe the discussion is digressing from the original question/thesis.

-In spite of manuscripts of the 18th century that list makam terms;
-in spite of compositions listed as a "makam xxx" that exist in books/compilation

-in spite of the use of makam theory by teachers to *explain* to SOME students aspects of *theory*:

The practice at the analogia of old-time was restricted to "classical" books and music (my use of the term "classic" refers to the books and music sanctioned by the Ecumenical patriarchate).

I challenge anyone to demonstrate that among ALL classic compositions (see my definition above), makam elements (that is formulae, cadences, phrases, passages that are not "classic" formulae etc) are >5% of the entire corpus...

Concerning the other points about local traditions and the degree to which they continued and by who, and if and when they have become (or not) mainstream at the analogion (e.g. Nikolaos of Smyrna/Misail Misailidis), those are separate questions and theses for which separate threads should be opened.


NG
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
I don't have the privilege to own any copies of Balasios's autographs, but I' ve seen mss written by some of his students. In this particular case of melos, the starting martiria is descriptive, something like "πλ α', ε'φωνος φθορικός" and sometimes there are some more details like "λέγεται πέντε επάνω εις το μέλος του νανά". And yes, the term "ατζέμ" is found in more recent mss.

I attach samples from three different mss. In two of them the scribes take a considerable effort to explain which mode the doxology is written in. In the third one the scribe doesn't even bother to use the nana fthora (he didn't understand the original composition?).
 

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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
I attach samples from three different mss. In two of them the scribes take a considerable effort to explain which mode the doxology is written in. In the third one the scribe doesn't even bother to use the nana fthora (he didn't understand the original composition?).

Exactly the way I' ve seen it too. I remember ιn some cases the use of νενανώ instead of νανά above Ζω, both showing the same thing, a semitone above Kε (Ζω ύφεσις). (This is a known case of διπλοπαραλλαγή: β' ήχος από παραλλαγής, γ' από μέλους).

As for the third sample, there could be a more simple explanation. Transcribers some times forget things. It's not unusual. We shouldn't always look for a deeper reason for everything we see in a ms. The sure thing is he is transcribing from an different source. You can see the use of υπορροή over the word φώς, while the other mss have the more analysed script with 4 απόστροφοι.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Another question I want to ask is: was Barys Heptaphonos an ecclesiastic mode in Balasios' times, or he was the first one to compose a Doxology in it?
 

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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Another question I want to ask is: was Barys Heptaphonos an ecclesiastic mode in Balasios' times, or he was the first one to compose a Doxology in it?

Very accurate question, indeed. I was planning to mention that. No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic. It was the first time that Ζω' would be used as an arctic tone.
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
The statement: "No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic."

Can you please substantiate the underlined elements in your thesis?

1) Varys was ALWAYS a mode...behaviour
2) Eptaphonos...INNOVATION....of Balasios"
3) CLEARLY influenced by makam evic.

The argument you are making, especially (3) is quite strong without any evidence that it HAD to be makam evic that CLEARLY influenced Balasios in this specific composition.

Heptaphonic Varys was around before this composition. Do a little homework and you will see that it is not necessarily "makam-influenced"...

NG
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Very accurate question, indeed. I was planning to mention that. No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic. It was the first time that Ζω' would be used as an arctic tone.

I want to clarify some points.

The strict behaviour of Barys is well known in the Byzantine period. Gabriel Hieromonachos (15th century) is absolute: Ὁ δὲ πλάγιος τοῦ δευτέρου καὶ ὁ βαρὺς κοινωνοῦσιν ἀλλήλοις κατὰ τὸ μὴ ποιεῖν διπλασμόν᾿ μέχρι τῶν ἑπτὰ φωνῶν οὗτοι οὐ προέρχονται. [...] ὁ δὲ βαρὺς [καταλέγει] τέσσαρας καὶ πέντε. This is clearly observed in various mss of that time.

"Heptaphonic" (this term differs from the term "heptaphonos") behaviour starts to be observed almost two centuries later, and not inside the main corpus of a music piece, but usually inside a "κράτημα". I can't recall any example of this behaviour earlier than the time Αρσένιος ο μικρός (1st half of 17th century) composed his well known κρατήματα, and especially the one in πρωτόβαρυς mode. There, we can see a heptaphonic behaviour in the second half of the melos' length. It's not strange at all that this team of kratemata were characterized as "συνθέματα εκ των έξω" (I.M. Leimonos, ms 238) and were given external names like σύριγγα or μουσχάλι (that's why I suggested that "the origins of this music "transaction" can be traced back to the half of 17th century" in an earlier post)

Despite the fact that "άνω Ζω" was starting to shyly take its place in our music as a "δεσπόζων φθόγγος" in secondary parts of various μέλη (κρατήματα etc) it was not before the composision of Balasios's doxologia that earned its place as a starting "φθόγγος" of an entire melos. And why is that? Because, it was "forbidden" to start a melos outside the strictly specified range of mode base tones (from Ζω to Κε). This is why Balasios gives the martiria of Ζω as an "αρκτική μαρτυρία" (the "legal" base of Barys) but starts all verses from Ζω' with a diplasmos. Only in eastern music Ζω' was used as a base note at that time. It was the base of makam evic, which is a basic (main) makam in Turkish-Arabic music.
 
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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Some more valuable samples:


I can't seem to find Balasios's doxologia with the term "ατζέμ" right now. Hope I haven't lost anything...

Bereketis Koinonikon is transcribed in the New Method by Hourmouzios. The term "ατζέμ" is found in the start of the Cheroubikon of "πλ α' πεντάφωνος" too.

The first two samples are taken from an Apostolos Konstas ms. The similarity between his doxologia and Balasios's one is obvious, especially in the starting phrases.
 

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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
For completeness, here is a description of Makam Evic from P. Kiltzanidis' book (the corresponding recording by Elder Panaretos Filotheitis can be found here). Makam starts from Evic (high Zo), hangs around high notes and then goes downwards to end on Arak (low Zo). This is what we see in Balasios' composition as well. A comparison with Daniel Protopsaltis' Doxology is interesting, in which verses also start from high Zo, but end again on the high Zo.
 

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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Konstas doxologia is characterized as "έβιτζ αράκ" for exactly the same reason: it starts from Ζω' and ends on Ζω. Daniel Protopsaltis' doxologia goes a step "forward". It stays high all the time and avoids to follow any known rule of melopoiia of that time. Isn't this an innovation?
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
All the above is fine and wonderful.

How many times did the psaltae of Constantinople use any of this in the services?

So, as concerns their use as mathimata (to fortify the knowledge base of the student), some of the compositions used very minor elements of makam, but even there, the formulae were NOT exactly 100% makam formulae/cadences.

My argument is not intended to support a thesis of "purity" in Byzantine ecclesiastic chant, free from influences of makam, however, my thesis is that very few of the "mathimata" that are "makamesque" found their way into standard and accepted melodies at the analogion. Even the above examples provided by the esteemed colleagues- how many times does one experience these at the analogion of an ecclesiastic service in the past 100 years?

NG
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Here is another bit of information from Konstantnos Protopsaltis' Ερμηνεία της Εξωτερικής Μουσικής (available here), in which its publishers Konstantinos Protopsaltis and Stephanos First Domestikos mention in plain language that the former's Doxastarion (available here) ("necessary and useful for every musician") contains many external melodies, which are incomprehensible for those not well-trained in it, but which now can be understood using the Ερμηνεία (of course here we also have a marketing move, when publishers of one book, which is advertised as most useful, are also pushing potential customers to buy another one).
 

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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
A simple example (among numerous others). The phrase "εν τω κεκραγέναι με προς σε" inside the Kegragarion of a' mode found in Ioannis Protopsaltis' Anasasimatarion (known as "έτερα, κατά μίμησιν του Βυζαντίου) is clearly an external melody, belonging to the "idea" of makam saba. A thorough research on the evolution of the New Sticherarion shows again a very strict behaviour of its melos that extends from its origins (Heirmologion of 17th century) to the final version of Petros Lampadarios. Further more, the phrase "εισάκουσόν μου" that ends on Zω (first added by Petros Byzantios in his Kekragarion) a loan from New Papadike, totally irrelevant with the structure of Sticherarion's a' mode, but well fitted inside the structure of a "makamesque" melos (saba is closely related to bestenigar).

An older post here with some additional information.
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Daniel Protopsaltis' doxologia goes a step "forward". It stays high all the time and avoids to follow any known rule of melopoiia of that time. Isn't this an innovation?

I think Daniel Protopsaltis is a very innovative composer (Chrysanthos in his Theoretikon agrees with that) with a personal style. Here is one example that I think of. Although the melody does have ideas in common with other papadic mele of that time, I can't help but think that through combination of modulations Daniel did have some external music motives in mind when composing it.

P.S. I don't necessarily consider makam borrowings a bad things. Facts are facts and music is music.
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Although the melody does have ideas in common with other papadic mele of that time, I can't help but think that through combination of modulations Daniel did have some external music motives in mind when composing it.

That's exactly my estimation too. I wrote in an older post "The influence is of another kind, (more fundamental, I think) and has to do with the way our musicians started to gradually absorb some basic principals of eastern music, and more specifically, the way Ottoman musicians understood the arrangement of tones and music scales. ".

P.S. I don't necessarily consider makam borrowings a bad things. Facts are facts and music is music.
Couldn't agree more. But the main problem with this music reality is that we cannot entirely connect basic principles and ideas about music scales and mode succession of the late 18th-early 19th century with the theoretical aspects in Byzantium. I' ve done a lot of research on this subject, mainly through music mss and theoretical treatises of byzantine-post byzantine times, and I see a totally different music reality when it comes to intervals and mode systems. I can't write more on this now. It's a big uncharted area of our music past.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Judging by a cautious preface to his Doxastarion, one would think that Konstantinos Protopsaltis' work was not met with uniform enthusiasm (here, I guess, one has to think in more global terms and take into account his Anastasimatarion and Mousike Kypsele as well, not only the Doxastarion). And indeed, an introductory note to the Idiomelarion of Petros Agiotaphitis copied by Iangos Kavadas does contain a critical remark, which although does not mention Konstantinos explicitly, is nevertheless directed against his school of thought (from this article by Michalis Stroumpakis).
 

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romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
And lets not forget that legetos was never an autonomous mode but a "μέσος" mode, always comprehended as an agia dependent mode. The type of legetos that was used to compose the mathimata mentioned here, is an autonomous mode with softer intervals that has more to do with Segah (which is also a basic makam) than with agia, the mode that gives birth to our ecclesiastical legetos.

While I'm no musicologist to the extent any of you are, I would question the accuracy of this statement, on the basis of extent scores such as Petros Ephesios' Ochtoechos Polyeleos (Exomologeisthe) which presents a "2nd Mode Diatonic" as "legetos" so questions that come to mind are, a) was legetos, which lacks the attractions "agia" has (I suppose now we get into conversations about 'hard diatonic' and 'soft diatonic') truly "dependent on Agia"? and b) was legetos perhaps a mode known by that polysyllabic interval description and it was only at a later time "categorized" as 4th mode?

Obviously peculiarities abound with respect to how to classify certain things modally (i.e. why is the Kathismata prosomia for Kateplagi Ioseeph classified into 4th mode when nearly every other time Nenano appears it's Plagal 2nd mode) and I'd be curious if such was the case here too.

I am certainly not an expert as I mentioned and thus would appreciate some further elaboration on the relationship to legetos to agia and if the categorization of Legetos as "Hxos Defteros Diatonikos" such as in Petros Ephesios is more exception vs. norm.

Thanks!
 
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basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
Further more, the phrase "εισάκουσόν μου" that ends on Zω (first added by Petros Byzantios in his Kekragarion) a loan from New Papadike, totally irrelevant with the structure of Sticherarion's a' mode, but well fitted inside the structure of a "makamesque" melos (saba is closely related to bestenigar).

For those following along at home, compare the setting of the First Mode Kekragarion by Petros Lampadarios to the one by Petros Byzantios in Add MS 17718 (British Library, London).
 
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