Question about orthography

SergM

Νέο μέλος
#1
Good day.
I have a question about Byzantine orthography.
How to write this cadence
1.png
, if the initial martyria is not Ga, but Pa?

Which version is the most correct?
2.png
According to the "book of 106 rules" in this case, option 1 is written, but I don't see an error in writing option 3 or 4. Or maybe there is some other?
 

polykarpos

Νέο μέλος
#2
Dear @SergM,
I think that we cannot have two consecutive Oligon with the same syllable in the new method AND and each to have a beat.
I am not sure, but the 4 case is the "correct" one.

If anyone else has a different idea, let us know.
 
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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
#3
How to write this cadence
In my opinion, there's something wrong with this cadence. Where is it stressed? What's the strong part of the rythm, the thesis? One of the απόστροφοι seems superfluous, because the last one must be a thesis.
 

SergM

Νέο μέλος
#4
In my opinion, there's something wrong with this cadence. Where is it stressed? What's the strong part of the rythm, the thesis? One of the απόστροφοι seems superfluous, because the last one must be a thesis.
I agree, all cadence may be incorrect. Let there be different:
3.png
And in one book (not Greek) I got this example:
4.png
The question is not in this. How to write the transition up on 3 steps + kentimata + psifiston (and two or more apostrofos later)?
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
#5
The question is not in this. How to write the transition up on 3 steps + kentimata + psifiston (and two or more apostrofos later)?
In this case you can't use kentimata. The reason is that in the previous sign kentima is used and descending follows, and there is a conflict that leads to this rule of orthgraphy, to never use kentimata after kentima when the following signs are descending.
The simplest and most correct way is to use plain oligon (ex. 1 in your first post). As an alternative, the oligon with antikenoma could be right in some cases. All other solutions are not correct from an orthographic standpoint.
For the example above
And in one book (not Greek) I got this example:
the appropriate solution is the 1st one, with plain oligon.

Edit: See the attachment.
 

Attachments

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ψαλμός 50ός

Ελένη Ντόβα-Χατζή
#6
Good day.
I have a question about Byzantine orthography.
How to write this cadence
View attachment 109989
, if the initial martyria is not Ga, but Pa?

Which version is the most correct?
View attachment 109990
According to the "book of 106 rules" in this case, option 1 is written, but I don't see an error in writing option 3 or 4. Or maybe there is some other?
The 4th one is corect
 

Stathis

Ευστάθιος Μεντζάς
#8
Good day.
I have a question about Byzantine orthography.
How to write this cadence
View attachment 109989
, if the initial martyria is not Ga, but Pa?

Which version is the most correct?
View attachment 109990
According to the "book of 106 rules" in this case, option 1 is written, but I don't see an error in writing option 3 or 4. Or maybe there is some other?
According to Hourmouzios orthografy you can write either 1 or 4.
kentimata alone with decending characters are not right.
Syndesmos needs ison and not oligon
Finally, 5th option cannot fit as psifiston is not stressed. There is only one way that psifiston can go 'unstressed' if we have hyporroi with gorgon.
 

Pappous43

Παλαιό Μέλος
#12
The "book of 106 rules" contains some combinations with syndesmos and without ison:
View attachment 110013
But it is not clear when they can be applied. What else are there?
Maybe so?
View attachment 110014
An interesting case!
I used the free BZQ software to check your question.
I wrote the first 6 notes in .bzq code, like this:
p WD K //" K D
and I received an error on note nr. 5 (K).
Then I corrected notes 5, 6 as an Yporroi i , like this:
p WD K //" iK D
and the ortho check is clean, no errors or warnings.
No error or warning at all about the Syndesmos!

To verify this, follow these steps:
-Execute program bzq.exe
-Clear the score area and type (or copy-paste)
p WD K //" K D
-Click on ΛΑΘΗ-Errors
-File BZQerrors.txt will open.

-Add i before 5th note (K) and repeat procedure.
 
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Pappous43

Παλαιό Μέλος
#13
Good day.
I have a question about Byzantine orthography.
How to write this cadence
View attachment 109989
, if the initial martyria is not Ga, but Pa?

Which version is the most correct?
View attachment 109990
According to the "book of 106 rules" in this case, option 1 is written, but I don't see an error in writing option 3 or 4. Or maybe there is some other?
As I told you in the case of the Syndesmos above,
you can quickly get help if you use BZQ.
In this case type (or Copy-Paste) the following:

D K D g b -p !
D " D g b -p !
WD K D g b -p !
D TK D g b -p !

D VK D g b -p

-press ΛΑΘΗ-Errors and you will read the first errors and corresponding rules.
-make corrections and repeat the procedure a number of times(!) until there are no more errors.
It will be an iterative process, and each time you will read which rules are used.
 

Stathis

Ευστάθιος Μεντζάς
#14
The "book of 106 rules" contains some combinations with syndesmos and without ison:
View attachment 110013
But it is not clear when they can be applied. What else are there?
Maybe so?
View attachment 110014
Hello!
From the above combinations, only two (no 3 and 6) do not connect something with ison. Bare in mind, that I am referring to orthography of the three teachers (Grigorios, Hourmouzios and Chrysanthos). The rules by Fr Ephraim are not in total agreement with the 3 teachers.
Also, about case no 6, you will never see it at any text of the 3. About, case no 3, it is one which has been 'analysed' already and if you think about it carefully it is actually the no 1 combination.
 

polykarpos

Νέο μέλος
#15
While I was searching for something else to the "Εισαγωγή εις το Θεωρητικόν της Εκκλησιαστικής Μουσικής..." του Χρυσάνθου, I saw this (see image). Of course, I think it is more important to look at the sources than the treatises.

CamScanner 05-13-2021 13.57 - Page 1.jpg
 

SergM

Νέο μέλος
#16
While I was searching for something else to the "Εισαγωγή εις το Θεωρητικόν της Εκκλησιαστικής Μουσικής..." του Χρυσάνθου, I saw this (see image). Of course, I think it is more important to look at the sources than the treatises.
I almost do not understand Greek, but in this example, instead of a kentimata, there is an oligon with psifiston. Like option 5.

And if so, although it is not exactly the same:
7.png
 

dimitris

Παλαιό Μέλος
#18
aaa.png
Ι ού δας ο δυσ σεβής From hermologion - P. Lampadarios

aaa2.png
and this is right (orhtography from book methodos of greek musik 1881, Kiltzanidis)

βββ.png
I think it is right
 

polykarpos

Νέο μέλος
#19
In the New Method a Vareia (in these cases) must have two signs with the same syllable as @Deacon said here. So, this is not right. 1621062973895.png

I think that Kiltzanidis never do this (i.e. with variai). In which page in Kiltzanidis' book did you find that? 1621063247643.png

The problem is that if we do not have the exact text we do not know where is the accented syllable. 1621062973895.png
 
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