Objective, software-based comparative microtonal analysis of the Soft Chromatic Tetrachord

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#21
Mr. Nassis, you also made the following points:

1) Just compare what 'mathemata' people influenced by Simon Karas chant to what most of the others chant.

Dear Mr. Nassis, unless you have some obscure book that has hymns the rest of the world has never seen or studied, please refrain from making such a nonsensical statement. All the material in the corpus of Byzantine music can be found the classic texts of the old masters (Petros, Iakovos Protopsaltis, Raidestinos, Ioannis, Konstantinos, Xourmouzios, Grigorios, etc.). A fifth-year student of any Byzantine Music Conservatory in Greece can easily chant all the hymns in the corpus.

But, even if one were to study and pat themselves in the back that they performed the "Mega Ison", I want to know how useful such material is in a church setting? Does your priest allow you to perform Kalophonic Eirmoi of Valasios of 20+ duration with kratema in your parish? How often have you introduced these mathemata in your parish?

You see, you make statements about "amanedes" etc., but you do not discuss how an ecclesiasma feels when it is subjected to 37 minutes of a terrirem/nennena/nennano. Is this the church service that you advocate?

Do you know WHY some hymns in the classic texts are called "mathemata" Mr. Nassis? Do you? Please answer this question.

The corpus of our ecclesiastically-practical hymns resides in the eirmologion Mr. Nassis. The eirmologion represents the most authentic expression of our hymnology. Not the "mathemata".


2) In my experience, they are the most reliable, disciplined, and professional individuals to work with.

So, if I understood your comment, only those who follow the Karas method are the most reliable people, the most disciplined people and the most professional people to work with.

The implication of this statement is that everyone else is unreliable, undisciplined and unprofessional.


Is your conclusion based on observation Mr. Nassis? Is it from some objective and published (or unpublished) study that measured the prevalence of reliable vs. unreliable people in a sample of Karas-followers vs. non-Karas followers? Or the prevalence of disciplined vs. undisciplined people in identical sample populations? Or in the prevalence of professional vs. unprofessional in the two sample populations?

How do you define reliable/professional/disciplined? And in what context?



3) And all they care about is the pure tradition of byzantine music....


The term "pure" is the key here. What do you define as pure? Other than Karas, which of the old psaltai (pre-1960s) do you consider "pure".

NG
 

Laosynaktis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#22
1) Mr. Arvanitis accepts the 8-14-8 tetrachord. The 8-14-8 tetrachord is incompatible with any of the tetrachords of the prolific Simon Karas

2) Mr. Arvanitis proposes a 12-9-9 tetrachord for the soft diatonic. We'll soon see how close this tetrachord approximates 60+ years of traditional chant of the "soft diatonic".

Mr. Nassis, please read point 1 above again, carefully...

NG.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
#24
From post:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80059&postcount=6

Ioannis Arvanitis (Laosynaktis) writes:

"You saw only the last line where I say that 12-9-9 are the intervals of soft diatonic."

Did Laosynaktis write this or did someone impersonate him???

NG
From the article:

If we divide by definition the Meizon tonos in 12 (acoustically equal) kommata, then the ratios used by Chrysanthos give the 4chord 12-9-8.5 which can be approximated by 12-9-9 to give an octave of 72 kommata as usually.

What Ioannis Arvanitis says here is that if we do the computations with ratios that Chrysanthos gives for the diatonic intervals, we will get that Chrysanthos' diatonic tetrachord is approximately 12-9-9. I don't see what his personal opinion is about the diatonic tetrachord and there is nothing said about the soft chromatic scale here.

P.S. I hope the moderators will clean the thread from off-topic messages.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#26
We will strive to provide sound files (or .avi files with the Melodos program playing the music) for as many "requests" as possible.

In the meantime, there are a number of very good "freeware" programs that one can use to input fractions or cents to derive sound files.

A good starting point is

http://infohost.nmt.edu/~jstarret/microtonal_software.html

Unless one uses the MELODOS program (http://www.melodos.com/index2.htm), it is the opinion of many people, including myself, that- to compare like with like, one should use the CENTS value of a Byzantine interval or a fraction when inputting values for intervals in software.

I am not going to debate whether it is prudent to round off 8.5 to 9 or not (see above communication). I would rather have those values in precise CENTS and then make the sound file.

If someone is able to provide me with the CENTS values of the 12, the 8.5 and the 9 interval (taken from the ORIGINAL FRACTIONS and NOT the value off the 72 temperament) I will gladly provide you with an mp3 file playing anything you wish.

I, too, would like the moderator(s) to have the previous off topic communications (between Mr. Nassis and myself) removed to keep this subject going in a civil and educational manner for all.

NG
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#27
What about Kateplagi Ioasif in the 4th Mode? Very hard chromatic on the low tetrachord to me.

JPP
Dear John,

Kateplagh Iwshf is one of a few hymns that belongs to the old family of "tones" termed "Nenannw" (hence why that apichima is used for Kateplagh Iwshf).

According to Manuel Vryennios, Chrysanthos and the older theorists, "Nenannw" was, in older times, considered a ninth tone. The specific phrase they use is "Ο Νεναννώ ένατος ήχος πέλει". They did not give any further explanations. I have read all the modern hypotheses about why "Nenannw" hymns are associated with Fourth Tone, but all fall off the mark and some make no sense whatsoever.

Any UNPUBLISHED insights on the association of Nenannw with Fourth Tone would be useful to be uploaded here (please DO NOT post material already published in the classic and the newer theories, most of us are aware of them).

NG
 
#28
Considering the emotional character of the dispute in this thread, first I'd like to make a disclaimer. :) With the following I am only asking some questions because I want to learn. I am not trying to oppose anyone.

Please, comment which of the following statements is true.

1. When a melody of Legetos stays in within the tetrachord Vou-Ga-Di-Ke then intervals are the same as in 2nd mode. If you think this is not true, then please provide a link to some audio example of Legetos by old chanter (i.e. Nafpliotis) where the intervals of Vou-Ga-Di-Ke do not sound like those of 2nd mode.

2. When a melody of Legetos descends to Pa and returns upwards, then Pa is in its standard position. The same happens in 2nd mode (maybe as attraction).

3. When a melody of Legetos descends below Pa then the intervals are the standard diatonic intervals. When a melody of 2nd mode descends below Pa then the character of the mode transforms to that of the 6th mode (and in most cases there is a phtora for 6th mode as a reminder).

4. When a melody of Legetos ascends to Zo and returns back, then Zo is flattened (exactly like in all other diatonic modes). I am unsure whether in this situation Ke is flattened or not but my feeling is that sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.

5. When a melody of 2nd mode (and the chromatic 4th mode) ascends to Zo then Zo is not flattened and in my opinion this is the most important difference between Legetos and 2nd mode.

6. When a melody of Legetos ascends over Zo then the intervals in the tetrachord Di-Ke-Zo-Ni are exactly the same as the intervals Ni-Pa-Vou-Ga-Di of 4th plagal mode. That is the interval Di-Ke is larger than the equally tempered whole tone. When a melody of 2nd mode ascends over Zo then nothing special happens (the same diphonia continues).
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#29
Please, comment which of the following statements is true.
Dear Zinoviev,

First, my responses should not be considered to be the ABSOLUTE "the truth". My responses are those that you will find in the Chrysanthine tradition, in acoustic witness of what 60+ years of oral tradition (and consensus theory) offers us as well as what the mainstream psaltai and teachers consider historically accurate.

1. When a melody of Legetos stays in within the tetrachord Vou-Ga-Di-Ke then intervals are the same as in 2nd mode. If you think this is not true, then please provide a link to some audio example of Legetos by old chanter (i.e. Nafpliotis) where the intervals of Vou-Ga-Di-Ke do not sound like those of 2nd mode.
Correct

2. When a melody of Legetos descends to Pa and returns upwards, then Pa is in its standard position. The same happens in 2nd mode (maybe as attraction).
Yes and no. When a legetos melody descends to Pa and the time spent on Pa is lengthened by a beat (i.e. when a rest-aplh, diplh, triplh, klasma) is placed at that note, Pa is in it's "natural" placement (i.e. the interval Vou-Pa is an "elasson" interval (value of 10 of the Patriarchal Committee).

When a legetos melody does NOT stop on Vou, one would execute a sharp on Pa effectively expanding the interval Ni-Pa. The actual integer value varies between Chrysanthos and the Patriarchal Committee, however, to the human ear the difference is barely (if at all) perceptible.

3. When a melody of Legetos descends below Pa then the intervals are the standard diatonic intervals. When a melody of 2nd mode descends below Pa then the character of the mode transforms to that of the 6th mode (and in most cases there is a phtora for 6th mode as a reminder).
Not quite. See response immediately above. The key to what happens to the intervals is if the melody "rests" on Pa. That will determine if the Pa-Ni interval is a full tone (12) or an expanded interval. Regarding 2nd tone, when the melody descends below Pa then the interval Ni-Pa is contracted but not as much as a hard chromatic Pa-Vou interval. The difference is subtle but perceptible (Pa-Vou hard chromatic=6; Pa-Vou soft chromatic=8).


4. When a melody of Legetos ascends to Zo and returns back, then Zo is flattened (exactly like in all other diatonic modes). I am unsure whether in this situation Ke is flattened or not but my feeling is that sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.
Correct. Zo is flat. Some newer theory manuals based on Chrysanthos and the Patriarchal Committee state that in some instances, upon descent from Zo, Ke is slightly flat also, but I am not sure where they get this information from. From acoustic tradition, I personally have never heard this, nor been taught this.


5. When a melody of 2nd mode (and the chromatic 4th mode) ascends to Zo then Zo is not flattened and in my opinion this is the most important difference between Legetos and 2nd mode.
Correct, although this is not the only difference.....but your statement about Zo is correct. Zo is in it's "natural" location here, as Ke is flat. Consider the diatonic tetrachord Di-Ke-Zo-Ni (12-10-8) vs. the soft chromatic of second tone (8-14-8).

6. When a melody of Legetos ascends over Zo then the intervals in the tetrachord Di-Ke-Zo-Ni are exactly the same as the intervals Ni-Pa-Vou-Ga-Di of 4th plagal mode. That is the interval Di-Ke is larger than the equally tempered whole tone. When a melody of 2nd mode ascends over Zo then nothing special happens (the same diphonia continues).
You are almost correct in the first sentence. Yes, when a melody of Legetos ascends over Zo, the interval Di-Ke is slightly larger than the equally tempered whole tone. However, the intervals in the tetrachord Di-Ke-Zo-Ni (upon ascent from Di), are NOT exactly the same as the intervals Ni-Pa-Vou-Ga-Di of 4th plagal mode and specifically the intervals Ni-Pa-Vou. It's harder to be definitive for plagal fourth because of the attraction of Pa towards Vou and this is very context-dependent. Such attractions become obvious in the papadic melodies.

I hope this is helpful.

NG.
 
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