Lesson 23 - Vespers Doxastikon - September 17

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#1
Evlogeite, Papa Ephraim,

This is my first attempt at serious composition; it was prompted by our new class requirement for Byzantine Music III that we compose a piece using traditional theseis.

Any suggestions and comments would be highly appreciated, to improve this piece. I'm not sure how valid some of the things I have written are - I guess I'll find out pretty soon, God willing. :)

We were required to compose with little outside help. However, I have the instructor's permission, now that I taken the piece as far as I can and submitted "my own independent work", to ask for comments and suggestions from yourself, Basil, et al.

I am also obligated to mention that our Professor, Dr. Menios Karanos, gave me the idea for some of the theseis, particularly the transposed thesi on high Ni "they cried: O Lord,". Also, prior to posting it here, Mr. John Boyer took a look at it and helped me compose the ending (that is, "grant victory" and onwards, until the end) as well as pointing out some trouble spots in the music.

Edit: There should be a gorgon on the long thesi "grant victory", on the second high Vou. My apologies for not adding it.

Edit #2: There should be meaningless "n"s in the following places:
2nd page, line 9, on the first note after the four beat ison on the word "Lord"
3rd page, 2nd-to-last line, on the last note (ison-kentemata- "table" combination)

Kissing your right hand,
Gabriel
 

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frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#2
Dear Gabriel,

I took a look at your composition, and I was delighted to see how well it turned out. There are just three little things I have to say about it:

1. In line 2 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "godless enemy." I think it has something to do with the syllable "-less" being held for two beats, although I can't explain why it shouldn't be. Maybe someone with more experience tell us if my hunch is correct, and if so, what is wrong with this phrase. Anyway, I would prefer this simple melody of filler notes:
with- Zo
stood Nee
the Nee
god- Nee
less Zo
Using three consecutive isons may sound "boring" to some people, but it's not at all unheard of in classical compositions in places like this.

2. In the elaborate melody for "grant victory," you forgot to insert the meaningless "n" symbol at the end of the second-to-last line on the last page.

3. Although penmanship doesn't really matter for rough drafts like this (especially if you plan on typing them up neatly afterwards), you might want to get into the habit of writing the martyria for Ke with a kappa instead of what looks to me like an English "x." I realize that the kappa in many printed books of Byzantine resembles an "x" more than it does a "κ," but that is just a quirk of their typeface.

Keep up the good work!
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#3
Dear Gabriel,

I took a look at your composition, and I was delighted to see how well it turned out. There are just three little things I have to say about it:

1. In line 2 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "godless enemy." I think it has something to do with the syllable "-less" being held for two beats, although I can't explain why it shouldn't be. Maybe someone with more experience tell us if my hunch is correct, and if so, what is wrong with this phrase. Anyway, I would prefer this simple melody of filler notes:
with- Zo
stood Nee
the Nee
god- Nee
less Zo
Using three consecutive isons may sound "boring" to some people, but it's not at all unheard of in classical compositions in places like this.

2. In the elaborate melody for "grant victory," you forgot to insert the meaningless "n" symbol at the end of the second-to-last line on the last page.

3. Although penmanship doesn't really matter for rough drafts like this (especially if you plan on typing them up neatly afterwards), you might want to get into the habit of writing the martyria for Ke with a kappa instead of what looks to me like an English "x." I realize that the kappa in many printed books of Byzantine resembles an "x" more than it does a "κ," but that is just a quirk of their typeface.

Keep up the good work!
Dear Papa Ephraim,

Thank you for the helpful comments. I have two questions:

1) Regarding the phrase "withstood the godless enemy": to make it less repetitive, but still keep the idea of what you're saying, what about the following:

Ke they
Zo with-
Pa stood
Ni the
Ni god-
Zo less

Could you make some comments about marking rhythm? I honestly know nothing, essentially, about notating rhythm in Byzantine music.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#4
what about the following:

Ke they
Zo with-
Pa stood
Ni the
Ni god-
Zo less
That sounds fine to me and better than what I had suggested.

Could you make some comments about marking rhythm?
I'm pretty sure that when the Three Teachers in the 19th century devised the "New Notation" that we still use today, they did not set forth the way that rhythm should be notated. So when people in the 20th century wanted to mark the rhythm, they did so arbitrarily (i.e., in whatever way they thought would be most helpful). I have noticed that students of Karas usually mark the rhythm using several small symbols between the notes and by writing the numbers 2-7 above certain notes. Others (e.g., Hieromonk Gregory at Simonos Petras) uses only one kind of small vertical line between notes, and he only uses it to mark the end of a measure containing 3 or 4 beats. In those cases, he also puts a 3 or a 4 above the first note of that measure. Or instead of writing a 3, some people insert a vertical line before the first note of a measure with 3 beats (and another vertical line after its last note). This can be a less-cluttered way to mark the score, especially if the score is something heirmologic that is full of measures containing 3 beats.

My personal preference is the latter. In my opinion, the method used by students of Karas is too difficult (for me, at least) to implement as a choir director because it involves moving your hand in a more complicated way. But if you ask someone else, he might be able to present a very strong case in favor of that more complicated way of marking the rhythm.
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#5
Dear Papa Ephraim,

Thanks for your comments. I've attached to this message the new score, with the corrections implemented and also typed up.

Do you find the ison to be satisfactory? The Ni ison lines 9 and 10 of page 2, and also the switch to Di, were because of the thesi being in third mode. I suppose I could have stayed on Ke in the places were Ni is indicated, instead. I think the Ni brings out the third mode much better, though. But I'd like to here your thoughts.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

Attachments

frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#6
Do you find the ison to be satisfactory? The Ni ison lines 9 and 10 of page 2 ...
This melodic phrase is the same one found in the first eothinon doxasticon of orthros. I have heard some recordings of some chanters in which the ison does go up to Ga, but I think most recordings leave the ison on Pa. My personal preference is to leave it on Pa in such instances, but I realize that it's only a personal preference of mine.

The score looks very nice now that you have typed it up neatly. I noticed one last minor thing. In the third-to-last line, the melody for the word "over" would be appropriate if its two syllables were unaccented or accented on the the second of the two. But since "over" is accented on the first syllable, it would be slightly better if the melody went:

o- Ke
ver Ke
OR

o- Zo
ver Ke​
 

antonios

Αετόπουλος Αντώνιος
#7
This melodic phrase is the same one found in the first eothinon doxasticon of orthros. I have heard some recordings of some chanters in which the ison does go up to Ga, but I think most recordings leave the ison on Pa. My personal preference is to leave it on Pa in such instances, but I realize that it's only a personal preference of mine.

The score looks very nice now that you have typed it up neatly. I noticed one last minor thing. In the third-to-last line, the melody for the word "over" would be appropriate if its two syllables were unaccented or accented on the the second of the two. But since "over" is accented on the first syllable, it would be slightly better if the melody went:

o- Ke
ver Ke
OR

o- Zo
ver Ke​
My English are not that good as to provide advice on the subject. However as a musician, I think that if the accent in the word "e'nemies" is more important than that in the word "o'ver", the phrase is just fine. It is not uncommon in Greek classical scores. This way the flow of music is smoother. (If that sound too bad in English language let me know.)
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#8
Papa Ephraim, Evlogeite,

Thank you for your suggestion. My first reaction, upon trying to chant it is that the phrase for "over" feels somewhat awkward either way (either as Zo-Ke, or as Ke-Ke), since the mode is moving into aghia, in a sense (hence the ison change on Di). It feels a bit disjointed. Of course, I've only been chanting for a year, so I can really say as I have much experience, and my ears are rather untrained.

My other reaction, perhaps on slightly more valid grounds, is that, to me, it seems that there's not a very noticeable difference. If we were speaking the phrase, it doesn't feel to me that I would give any particular accent to the "o" in "over", whereas I would definitely give the "e" in "enemies" extra emphasis. It sounds far less emphasized to me than the somewhat comparative situation in the Theophany Doxastikon of the Third Hour, http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Menaion/b5405e.pdf, where, on pg. 11, 2nd-to-last line of the page, we have "receive the testiMOny". However, this might NOT be comparable, because, without pulling out your formula book, I have a feeling that this is simply how that thesi works, and any unaccented syllable would sound similar there. But that's just a hunch.

The bottom line is that, if you feel it needs to be changed, I will definitely take your experience over mine, seeing that you have been doing this MUCH longer than I have. :)

Kissing your right hand,
Gabriel
 
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frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#9
One thing I noticed when collecting formulas of composers of "classics" (i.e., of the early 1800s) was that they had different approaches in regards to dealing with "unimportant" accents. For example, when there was a word in Greek that did have an accent, but it was not the kind of accent that must necessarily be emphasized, some composers made sure to give it a melodic accent when constructing a "herimologic bridge" for that word, while others would not. In other words, if they had a word like "over" which is accented on the first syllable but is not such a crucial word, some of them would write it with a petaste for the "o-" and with an apostrophos for the "-ver," whereas others would simply write an ison for each of those syllables.
So my conclusion from this is that there isn't a mandatory rule stating that an accented syllable must be emphasized melodically. Therefore I think a composer is free to choose whatever he thinks will sound appropriate. But I still have the hunch that writing an apostrophos for the accented syllable (followed by an oligon for the unaccented syllable) is something that classical composers would try to avoid doing. (Someone please correct me if this hunch of mine is wrong.)
 

antonios

Αετόπουλος Αντώνιος
#10
So my conclusion from this is that there isn't a mandatory rule stating that an accented syllable must be emphasized melodically.
I agree.

But I still have the hunch that writing an apostrophos for the accented syllable (followed by an oligon for the unaccented syllable) is something that classical composers would try to avoid doing. (Someone please correct me if this hunch of mine is wrong.)
View attachment Meth ymwn Petrou.bmp

The first circle is not the same case, as the next syllabe is also accented, but there are many cases like the second one found in classical scores.
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#11
Another question that I have, related to the same score, but not with the issue at hand (the accent on "o" in "over"):

In the elaborate thesi for "grant victory", is it correct to replace the kentemata in the middle of line 3 on p. 3 (the word "victo-", the first time around, before it is repeated) with an oligon, so that the word is chanted in fully ("victory" as opposed to "victo-")?

I assumed it wasn't, given the thesi. However, I noticed that Basil, in his score for the Praises Doxastiko for the archangels, http://dropbox.basilcrow.com/music/byzantine/Nov8.pdf, does just this, so that the word "praiseworthy" is chanted in its entirety before being repeated, and that this is achieved by replacing the kentemata with an oligon. (Last note of the 4th-to-last line on the 2nd page.)

Is this a thesi which can have variable numbers of syllables, and thus it is permissible to do this?

-Gabriel
 

frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#12
View attachment 55699
The first circle is not the same case, as the next syllable is also accented, but there are many cases like the second one found in classical scores.
Thank you for finding these examples.

I agree that the first circle is not the same case because it is followed by an accented syllable. When there are two consecutive accented syllables (especially in heirmologic melodies) usually one of them is treated as if it is unaccented.

I think that the second circle is also not the same case as what I am talking about for two reasons:
1) Although the word επί in Greek is written with an accent on the iota, composers treat this (and all two-syllable prepositions) as if neither syllable is accented.
2) The word "over" in Gabriel's composition is in a sticheraric melody and is located immediately after a martyria. But the second circle is from a heirmologic melody and is not immediately after a martyria.
Even though I don't think the examples you found have disproved my hunch, I am still not 100% certain that my hunch is correct. So if you or anyone else can find an example from classic compositions that disprove my hunch, please let me know!
 

frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
#13
Is this a thesi which can have variable numbers of syllables, and thus it is permissible to do this?
My guess is that it is probably permissible, considering that the third formula on p. 454 essentially does so, even though the cross is placed before that oligon instead of after it (which is what Basil did). Just because I didn't find a formula with a cross before that oligon doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.

Another thing worth considering is what is the ideal degree of flexibility (or inflexibility) we should have when applying the formulas to English? Just because Greek hymns have a particular way of repeating words and parts of words doesn't necessarily mean that an identical way of repeating them absolutely must be applied to English. Even though I personally prefer to err on the side of caution (by inflexibly following the paradigm for word repetition found in Greek hymns), I don't think it would be wrong to use a slightly different paradigm in English, especially if there are instances in which hearing an incomplete word in English would sound strange.
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#14
Dear Papa Ephraim,

I've made a couple of changes based on your suggestions. Attached is the corrected score. I removed the hard chromatic fthora of Pa on page 2, on the word "beheaded". I felt that, while the text painting was good, it was a little redundant, because I put an identical fthora on an identical melody earlier ("weakness"). However, I'd like to know if you think the two sections are far enough apart in the hymn that it doesn't sound redundant to use an identical melodic line.

-Gabriel
 

Attachments

basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
#15
Dear Gabriel,

Nice work! Your composition turned out rather well overall. Here are my suggestions:

1. In line 1 of page 2, a vareia should be inserted at the beginning of the word "Love" to match the second 1001 formula on page 457. To make that phrase flow more smoothly to the next phrase, I also suggest changing the diple beneath "Love" to an aple.

2. In line 2 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "they stood." It appears that you took the second 0100100 formula on page 414 and chopped off the second and third syllables. However, I don't believe the second and third syllables can be chopped out of that formula without also chopping off the fourth syllable as well. Instead of what you have, I would recommend either the fourth or fifth 0100 formulae on page 413. Even though the syllabic pattern for "stood boldly" is 110, the second 0 in those two 0100 formulae gets four full beats, making those two 0100 formulae (and others like them) also suitable as 0110 formulae.

3. In lines 5-6 of page 2, the melody you have for "they withstood the godless enemy and offered themselves" is valid, but in my subjective opinion it sounds a little choppy. I would personally prefer the following alternative to make the melody smoother:

they Ke
with- Zo
stood Pa (petaste)
the Ni
god- Ni
less Pa
en- Vou (psefiston)
e- Pa
my Ni
and Zo
of- (same)

4. In line 6 of page 2, an antikenoma should be inserted beneath the second oligon of "offered" to match the first 01001 formula on page 439.

5. Given that we have finally come to the end of the first sentence on the words "contending nobly for the Faith" in lines 7-8 of page 2, I find it curious that you opted for the first 1010X0X formula on page 401 when, being at the end of the sentence, a slower, more final cadence might be more appropriate. I would personally prefer the 01000100 formula on page 405. Even though it is labeled a 01000100 formula, it can also be used as a 01000X0X formula, as can be seen by comparing its ending to the 00X0X formula on page 401.

6. In line 9 of page 2, the last gorgon should be placed beneath (rather than above) the oligon and a stavros should be inserted before the word "they" to match the first 0100 formula on page 58.

7. In lines 9-10 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "they cried: O Lord." Although this slow sticheraric formula from Third Mode is used in the First Eothinon in the Anastasimatarion by Petros Peloponnesios as published by Ioannis Protopsaltis, I don't believe that the same formula can be used in Plagal First Mode. That is because I can't recall a single instance of this formula in any classical compositions in Plagal First Mode. Of course, if you or anyone else can find an example of this formula in a classical composition in Plagal First Mode that disproves my statement, please let me know!

8. In line 12 of page 2, the petaste beneath the ison for the first word "for" should be removed because that word is an unaccentuated preposition.

9. This might be splitting hairs, but the Di ison marker on line 2 of page 3 is redundant and can be safely removed because it is implied by the previous Mazi ison marker.

10. In line 3 of page 3, the last note of the syllable "-to" in the first repetition of "victory" is written with an oligon in some classical compositions and with kentemata in other classical compositions, as evidenced by the green shading on page 453 of the formula book. Despite this, I believe that using kentemata violates orthographic rule #22, which states that "the kentemata are never placed on the downbeat," and that the oligon should always be used when writing this formula.

Keep up the great work!

Basil
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#16
Nice work! Your composition turned out rather well overall.
Thank you Basil.

1. In line 1 of page 2, a vareia should be inserted at the beginning of the word "Love" to match the second 1001 formula on page 457. To make that phrase flow more smoothly to the next phrase, I also suggest changing the diple beneath "Love" to an aple.
I've made the suggested changes.

2. In line 2 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "they stood." It appears that you took the second 0100100 formula on page 414 and chopped off the second and third syllables. However, I don't believe the second and third syllables can be chopped out of that formula without also chopping off the fourth syllable as well. Instead of what you have, I would recommend either the fourth or fifth 0100 formulae on page 413. Even though the syllabic pattern for "stood boldly" is 110, the second 0 in those two 0100 formulae gets four full beats, making those two 0100 formulae (and others like them) also suitable as 0110 formulae.
My intention was not to use any particular formula here, but more of a "stock" melody for this short little phrase out of the text. I wasn't thinking of chopping any particular notes off of any formula. Is this necessarily a problem?

3. In lines 5-6 of page 2, the melody you have for "they withstood the godless enemy and offered themselves" is valid, but in my subjective opinion it sounds a little choppy. I would personally prefer the following alternative to make the melody smoother:

they Ke
with- Zo
stood Pa (petaste)
the Ni
god- Ni
less Pa
en- Vou (psefiston)
e- Pa
my Ni
and Zo
of- (same)
My thought is that, while there is not a comma in the text, the two phrases "they withstood the godless enemy" and "and offered themselves as willing sacrifices unto God" would be split up if one were reading them aloud. So it seems that if I used the melody you outlined above, while it is more smooth, it runs the two parts of the sentence together that I feel I would separate if I were reading them aloud.


4. In line 6 of page 2, an antikenoma should be inserted beneath the second oligon of "offered" to match the first 01001 formula on page 439.
Thank you.

5. Given that we have finally come to the end of the first sentence on the words "contending nobly for the Faith" in lines 7-8 of page 2, I find it curious that you opted for the first 1010X0X formula on page 401 when, being at the end of the sentence, a slower, more final cadence might be more appropriate. I would personally prefer the 01000100 formula on page 405. Even though it is labeled a 01000100 formula, it can also be used as a 01000X0X formula, as can be seen by comparing its ending to the 00X0X formula on page 401.
I'll look into changing it. But, my impression upon chanting it as described is that the word "for" gets a great deal of unnecessary emphasis if I use this approach. Perhaps this isn't a problem.

6. In line 9 of page 2, the last gorgon should be placed beneath (rather than above) the oligon and a stavros should be inserted before the word "they" to match the first 0100 formula on page 58.
In the formula book, is the stavros to indicate a breath, or to indicate repeated syllables? I believe in the Anastasimatarion, there is no stavros.

7. In lines 9-10 of page 2, something doesn't sound quite right about the melody for "they cried: O Lord." Although this slow sticheraric formula from Third Mode is used in the First Eothinon in the Anastasimatarion by Petros Peloponnesios as published by Ioannis Protopsaltis, I don't believe that the same formula can be used in Plagal First Mode. That is because I can't recall a single instance of this formula in any classical compositions in Plagal First Mode. Of course, if you or anyone else can find an example of this formula in a classical composition in Plagal First Mode that disproves my statement, please let me know!
Let me ask Dr. Karanos (who suggested this thesi) and get back to you.

8. In line 12 of page 2, the petaste beneath the ison for the first word "for" should be removed because that word is an unaccentuated preposition.
The reasoning behind the petaste (again recommended by Dr. Karanos) was that it is followed by a single descending note, and would be good to have there for orthographical reasons.

9. This might be splitting hairs, but the Di ison marker on line 2 of page 3 is redundant and can be safely removed because it is implied by the previous Mazi ison marker.
Thank you. I'll perhaps look into changing it.

10. In line 3 of page 3, the last note of the syllable "-to" in the first repetition of "victory" is written with an oligon in some classical compositions and with kentemata in other classical compositions, as evidenced by the green shading on page 453 of the formula book. Despite this, I believe that using kentemata violates orthographic rule #22, which states that "the kentemata are never placed on the downbeat," and that the oligon should always be used when writing this formula.
I may change it, in that case.

Keep up the great work!
Thank you, Basil.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#17
Hi Basil,

I spoke with Dr. Karanos; I've made some of the changes you've named, mostly the orthographical problem (with the petaste; I misunderstood him) and the Di ison marker.

Regarding the phrase on high Ni ("they cried, O Lord"), he said that he was pretty sure there was a classical piece that uses this thesi as I have. Additionally, he felt that it was valid regardless.

My other points or questions are still in the previous post. Thank you for your suggestions, Basil.
 

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basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
#18
My intention was not to use any particular formula here, but more of a "stock" melody for this short little phrase out of the text. I wasn't thinking of chopping any particular notes off of any formula. Is this necessarily a problem?
I assume that by "stock melody" you really mean "heirmologic bridge." I am fairly certain that your melody for "they stood" is an invalid heirmologic bridge because I couldn't find any examples of such an heirmologic bridge for a 01 syllabic pattern in Papa Ephraim's collection of formulas or in the Plagal First Mode pieces in my memory. Unless you can prove me wrong by coming up with such an example, my point remains.

My thought is that, while there is not a comma in the text, the two phrases "they withstood the godless enemy" and "and offered themselves as willing sacrifices unto God" would be split up if one were reading them aloud. So it seems that if I used the melody you outlined above, while it is more smooth, it runs the two parts of the sentence together that I feel I would separate if I were reading them aloud.
I agree that the two phrases "they withstood the godless enemy" and "offered themselves as willing sacrifices unto God" are grammatically distinct clauses. Since this is the case, a composer is forced to choose between a choppy melody whose breaks rigorously match the breaks of the text and a smooth melody whose breaks almost always match the breaks of the text. While this is in general a subjective matter that ultimately depends on the composer, I personally prefer the latter in this case for the following reasons. Firstly, the lack of a break between "godless enemy" and "offered themselves" is barely noticeable to a listener, while the choppy melody is more noticeable to a listener. Secondly, and more generally, the principle of matching the breaks in the melody to the breaks in the text is not always strictly upheld in every case in practice (even though it would be ideal to do so). As proof, suppose we strictly upheld this principle in every case. Then we would also have to rewrite all the heirmoi of the canons so that the musical breaks match the textual breaks in every instance, destroying the melodic and rhythmic unity of the prosomia. While some people have indeed done this (e.g., Fr Constantine Papagiannis), most would view this practice as excessive. So this principle is not always strictly upheld in every case, and thus it is permissible to slightly relax it in this case. I contend that it is advantageous to do so in order to create a smoother melody.

I'll look into changing it. But, my impression upon chanting it as described is that the word "for" gets a great deal of unnecessary emphasis if I use this approach. Perhaps this isn't a problem.
Not true; "for" does indeed get 4 beats (including a strong downbeat), but that doesn't mean it gets too much emphasis. In fact, unstressed syllables are frequently given four beats in many formulas (see, for example, the formulas that are highlighted in yellow on pages 524-528). That having been said, while the formula I suggested is not a bad fit for the text, I now see that the formula you used is a better fit for the text, so I withdraw my suggestion. It's a pity that the text doesn't allow us to use the formula I suggested anywhere in the piece, because it's a very common formula in Plagal First Mode Doxastika.

In the formula book, is the stavros to indicate a breath, or to indicate repeated syllables? I believe in the Anastasimatarion, there is no stavros.
Both. Whether or not to use a stavros with repeated syllables is a matter of editorial style. Yes, the editorial style employed in the Anastasimatarion does not require a stavros before repeated syllables, but the editorial style employed in the Divine Music Project does require it. Since you are composing a piece for inclusion in the latter, you ought to be consistent with that publication's editorial style.

I may change it, in that case.
I don't understand what you mean by "may." I've provided you with a reason as to why you should use the oligon instead of the kentemata, and you haven't responded to me. You ought to either refute my argument or make the change.

Regarding the phrase on high Ni ("they cried, O Lord"), he said that he was pretty sure there was a classical piece that uses this thesi as I have.
Sorry, but I don't believe this. I have chanted the Anastasimatarion and Mousike Kypsele cover-to-cover, and I am fairly certain I would remember such an unusual cadence if I had come across it. If what you say is really the case, then prove it by supplying a relevant example.

Additionally, he felt that it was valid regardless.
Sorry, but this statement is meaningless without the corresponding reasoning.
 

phokaeus

Παλαιό Μέλος
#19
Basil - if I remember correctly, Germanou Neon Patron uses a very similar thesis in his setting of 'Τον ήλιον κρύψαντα' (plagal 1st mode), albeit not transposed to high Ni. I believe I have also seen it in some doxastika of Iakovos Protopsaltis, however I can't cite any specific pieces.

Also:
10. In line 3 of page 3, the last note of the syllable "-to" in the first repetition of "victory" is written with an oligon in some classical compositions and with kentemata in other classical compositions, as evidenced by the green shading on page 453 of the formula book. Despite this, I believe that using kentemata violates orthographic rule #22, which states that "the kentemata are never placed on the downbeat," and that the oligon should always be used when writing this formula.
The beat in question is not, in fact, an off-beat. This particular section of the thesi could be viewed as being in 4/4 time (strong-weak-"medium"-weak), and because it's duple meter, the third beat is not classified as "weak."
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
#20
Hi Basil,

I'm looking into some of your other comments. My immediate impression regarding your comment,

Whether or not to use a stavros with repeated syllables is a matter of editorial style. Yes, the editorial style employed in the Anastasimatarion does not require a stavros before repeated syllables, but the editorial style employed in the Divine Music Project does require it. Since you are composing a piece for inclusion in the latter, you ought to be consistent with that publication's editorial style.
is that, when I look at Papa Ephraim's setting of the First Eothinon Doxastikon, there is no stavros in the score:

http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Orthros/b3921_Eothinon1.pdf

Additionally, the Doxastikon of the Holy Fathers, which appears to use a variation of the same thesi, does not have a stavros.

http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Menaion/b5111.pdf

Also, regarding the use of the old sticheraric third mode thesi in plagal first, attached is the piece Phokaeus is referring to.

I don't understand what you mean by "may." I've provided you with a reason as to why you should use the oligon instead of the kentemata, and you haven't responded to me. You ought to either refute my argument or make the change.
My response would be that it is included in the Anastasimatarion this way, and that Papa Ephraim (who wrote the orthrography rules article) continues to include that particular thesi in the original form (for instance, in his adaptation of Εν τη Ερυθρά, "In the Red Sea", which I am sure you are familiar with.)

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

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