Eothinon 10 in English

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
So I thought it'd be helpful that with the large amount of well composed English pieces coming out if we started posting some actual recordings and interpretations of these pieces for us to listen to, comment on, and compare against each other for the sake of growing and learning the English repertoire together. Anyways, so as to get this going, here is a link to me chanting the 10th Eothinon as composed by Papa Ephraim - http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Orthros/b3930_Eothinon10.pdf

Here is the link to the sound file as chanted this morning at Annunciation GOC in Chattanooga, TN - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ki0r89ym5gy33t5/Voice 019.m4a?dl=0

Enjoy!
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
So I thought it'd be helpful that with the large amount of well composed English pieces coming out if we started posting some actual recordings and interpretations of these pieces for us to listen to, comment on, and compare against each other for the sake of growing and learning the English repertoire together. Anyways, so as to get this going, here is a link to me chanting the 10th Eothinon as composed by Papa Ephraim - http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Orthros/b3930_Eothinon10.pdf

Here is the link to the sound file as chanted this morning at Annunciation GOC in Chattanooga, TN - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ki0r89ym5gy33t5/Voice 019.m4a?dl=0

Enjoy!

Hi Sam,

Nice to hear another recording of you. :)

Is there a specific reason why you are doing all the diatonic modulations on Pa (for instance, in the opening line - "Hades", where there is a diatonic fthora of Pa) as if they were actually Ke? (I.e. making Bou flat - as if it were Zo - on the way down.)

-Gabriel
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Hi Sam,

Nice to hear another recording of you. :)

Is there a specific reason why you are doing all the diatonic modulations on Pa (for instance, in the opening line - "Hades", where there is a diatonic fthora of Pa) as if they were actually Ke? (I.e. making Bou flat - as if it were Zo - on the way down.)

-Gabriel

I'm curious to hear what Sam says, but I've heard that modulation when Ketsetzis chants it on his Anastasimatarion recordings and figured that it's in the oral tradition to do so. Do you hear Bou diatonic (ie 1/3 flat) when people like Menios other experience chanters execute that part of the score?

R.
 

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
I'm curious to hear what Sam says, but I've heard that modulation when Ketsetzis chants it on his Anastasimatarion recordings and figured that it's in the oral tradition to do so. Do you hear Bou diatonic (ie 1/3 flat) when people like Menios other experience chanters execute that part of the score?

R.

This is exactly who and why, from my old Anastasimatarion recordings of Ketsetzis. My first teacher Leonidas Kotsiris did it like this, I've also heard it from many other chanters, such as here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=afSC6BmwmvA and here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWH-rh3uKJs

Honestly, it never occurred to me not to do it or even that there was an alternative until you asked me, Tim. Thanks for asking, I've never thought about it! Always done it that way. If you're able, could you post a recording of yourself or another chanter, Greek or English, chanting it without flattening βου upon descent?
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
I'm curious to hear what Sam says, but I've heard that modulation when Ketsetzis chants it on his Anastasimatarion recordings and figured that it's in the oral tradition to do so. Do you hear Bou diatonic (ie 1/3 flat) when people like Menios other experience chanters execute that part of the score?

R.

I would say it's definitely in the oral tradition to do it as Sam did on his recording.

But, I'm simultaneously curious as to why it is notated as "Pa"... when just about everyone I just listened to (Priggos, Hatzichronoglou, Ketsetzis, et al) perform it as if it were a Ke.

This is not limited to just this particular piece... many classical settings of Φωτίζου, φωτίζου (the 9th Ode, for Pascha) use this same thesis. Again, it is notated as Pa, and, again, most everyone I have heard chants it as if it were a Ke.

Interestingly enough, Konstantinos Katsoulis (who has the piece recorded paralagi and melos) chants it "as it is written" paralagi - in other words, as if it were a plagal fourth thesis - but when he performs it in melos, he treats it as if it were a Ke (in other words, he flattens the Bou on descent).

I will talk to Dr. Karanos about it and get back to everyone. Or maybe he will just post here. :)

-Gabriel
 

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
Now, he does not have the initial descent at all on Hades, but on the circled descent, Petros Efesios uses the fthora for Κε. Interesting, huh?
 

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herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
I would say it's definitely in the oral tradition to do it as Sam did on his recording.

But, I'm simultaneously curious as to why it is notated as "Pa"... when just about everyone I just listened to (Priggos, Hatzichronoglou, Ketsetzis, et al) perform it as if it were a Ke.

This is not limited to just this particular piece... many classical settings of Φωτίζου, φωτίζου (the 9th Ode, for Pascha) use this same thesis. Again, it is notated as Pa, and, again, most everyone I have heard chants it as if it were a Ke.

Interestingly enough, Konstantinos Katsoulis (who has the piece recorded paralagi and melos) chants it "as it is written" paralagi - in other words, as if it were a plagal fourth thesis - but when he performs it in melos, he treats it as if it were a Ke (in other words, he flattens the Bou on descent).

I will talk to Dr. Karanos about it and get back to everyone. Or maybe he will just post here. :)

-Gabriel

One finds this in the oral tradition of "Let my Prayer be Set Forth as Incense" in the Presanctified Liturgy in plagal first as well. See circled area. Here, there is no fthora to indicate either.
 

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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
One finds this in the oral tradition of "Let my Prayer be Set Forth as Incense" in the Presanctified Liturgy in plagal first as well. See circled area. Here, there is no fthora to indicate either.

I've definitely heard that thesis chanted with the Vou natural as well. :) I wish I could remember by whom, though...
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
I suppose we're noticing something that's really part the 'behavior' of first mode with Ni cadences.

I was thinking of other examples when this might happen - in the 1905 anastasimatarion of Ioannis in 1st mode in a few examples there are descents to Zo but pretty sure vou is in it's 'normal' position. I had a hard time thinking of examples of medial cadences on Ni in 1st mode.

Perhaps this is a special case that exists within oral tradition with "Ni" cadences in first mode? Still it begs the question "why not a pthora of ke?".
 
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basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
Is there a specific reason why you are doing all the diatonic modulations on Pa (for instance, in the opening line - "Hades", where there is a diatonic fthora of Pa) as if they were actually Ke? (I.e. making Bou flat - as if it were Zo - on the way down.)

The key to understanding the difference between the diatonic Pa fthora and the diatonic Ke fthora is to focus on these four rules:

  1. If the scale note on which the fthora is placed is the lower bound of a pentachord (above or beneath which is another pentachord), a Pa fthora is used.
  2. If the scale note on which the fthora is placed is the upper bound of a pentachord (above or beneath which is another pentachord), a Ke fthora is used.
  3. If the scale note beneath the one on which the fthora is placed is the lower bound of a pentachord (above or beneath which is a tetrachord), a Pa fthora is used.
  4. If the scale note beneath the one on which the fthora is placed is the lower bound of a tetrachord (above or beneath which is a pentachord), a Ke fthora is used.

To see Rule 1 in action, see the line «τριήμερος ανέστης» in the Plagal First Mode Apostichon «Σε τον Σαρκωθέντα Σωτήρα Χριστόν» in the Anastasimatarion. The syllable «τρι» is the lower bound of a pentachord (beneath which is another pentachord), so a Pa fthora is used. In this case, we know that Pa is the start of a pentachord and Ke is the start of another pentachord because the interval from Pa to Ke and the interval from Ke to Vou' are each 700 cents (10 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 42 units).

To see Rule 2 in action, see the line «ότι αυτός εστιν ο Θεός ημών» in the second Kekragarion of First Mode «Κυκλώσατε λαοί Σιών» in the Anastasimatarion. The Pa in the phrase «ο Θεός ημών» is the upper bound of a pentachord (above which is another pentachord), so a Ke fthora is used. In this case, we know that low Di is the start of a pentachord and Pa is the start of another pentachord because the interval from low Di to Pa and the interval from Pa to Ke are each 700 cents (10 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 42 units).

To see Rule 3 in action, see the line «Παρέστησαν οι βασιλείς της γης» in the «Μακάριος ανήρ» of Manuel Protopsaltis. The fthora is placed on the word «γης» on Pa. One scale note beneath this is Ni, the start of a pentachord (above which is a tetrachord), so a Pa fthora is used. In this case, we know that Ni is the start of a pentachord because the distance between Ni and Ke is 900 cents (12 + 10 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 54 units).

To see Rule 4 in action, see the line «Παρέστησαν οι βασιλείς της γης» in the «Μακάριος ανήρ» of Petros Lampadarios. The fthora is placed on the word «γης» on low Ke. One scale note beneath this is low Di, the start of a tetrachord (above which is a pentachord), so a Ke fthora is used. In this case, we know that low Di is the start of a tetrachord and Ni is the start of a pentachord because the distance between low Di and Vou is 866.67 cents (12 + 10 + 8 + 12 + 10 = 52 units).

In all of these cases, the scale note above the one on which the fthora is placed (i.e., the scale note that represents Vou or Zo) is flattened or not flattened during performance depending on the law of attraction, regardless of whether the preceding scale note had a Pa or Ke fthora on it.

* * *

Given the above, we can explain the Pa fthora in «κάθοδον» with Rule 3. The Vou is flattened on descent during performance because of the law of attraction, nothing more.
 

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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Hi Basil,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Do we really need to conceive of these fthorae in terms of "upper and lower bounds of tetrachords or pentachords," though?

It seems to me that one could say that, if we were to read the music totally analytically and take the fthorae at face value, then we can say - with confidence - that Bou "should" be in its natural position (i.e. 10 moria away from Pa) on both descent and ascent. The alternate interpretation can be attributed to oral tradition.

I don't see why Bou would be flat because of the "law of attraction" - Bou does not exhibit that kind of flatness in Plagal Fourth Mode cadences such as these, and it is only on cadential theseis in First/Plagal First Modes that Bou exhibits the slight downward attraction due to the "gravitational pull," so to speak, of Pa, being that it is the base of the mode. This is a different cadence - finishing on Ni, not Pa - so I don't see why Bou would demonstrate this extreme flatness because of the "law of attraction." Perhaps I am missing something here?

It seems that it might be worth explaining the execution of this particular thesis in terms of oral tradition, and/or the slightly less analytical writing of earlier composers. Perhaps, in oral tradition, it has become acceptable - even common practice - to execute this thesis as if the fthora were actually of diatonic Ke, not diatonic Pa. That is not actually "what the music says" - but, due to oral tradition, it has become acceptable.

Similarly, it has become part of the oral tradition to perform "εκ των ουρανών" of the Third Mode Πάσα Πνοή as if there were a fthora of diatonic Pa on the Ke - even though it is not written that way in the score. Nonetheless, most cantors perform it this way. It has become oral tradition to execute that particular line thusly.

Similarly (although not exactly the same, but for the sake of argument, let's consider it), in plagal first mode heirmologic, many pieces are written from Ke as Ke (not Ke with a diatonic fthora of Pa on it). Nonetheless, cantors perform plagal first heirmologic as if there were a diatonic fthora of Pa placed on the first Ke of the piece. The result, as we all know, is that Ga is sharp (it sounds like Zo of first mode) and the original Zo now behaves like a Bou of first mode, and does not exist the extreme instability we expect it to have in the other diatonic modes (e.g. plagal first mode using the octave system). This treatment of Ke as Pa - even without the fthora - is part of the oral tradition.

Similarly, many sections of plagal first mode sticheraric, when they enter the upper tetrachord, utilize the "τροχός" system (Ke becomes Pa), even though they are not explicitly notated.

The point to all this is that among some earlier composers, the fthorae were perhaps not used as rigidly or as analytically as we use them today. And perhaps we can attribute this alternate execution of the Bou flat in this particular thesis to oral tradition, or to an inexact application of the fthora. But I'm hesitant to explain it simply by saying that the Bou is pulled downward because of the law of attraction, when Bou does not demonstrate this kind of movement in plagal fourth cadences.

-Gabriel
 

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
Also, for what it's worth, in this video (around 1:40), Iakovos Nafpliotis does not do a pronounced Bou-flat on the line "Φωτίζου, φωτίζου."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtC39PV5bF8

-Gabriel

This line seems much less unified on the flat βου as "κάθοδον" across the board. Stanitsas also doesn't have as pronounced of a βου flat. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fipb4ZMvPBM

Here is another example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mtNSp0FRYpE

Then there are many where it is quite pronounced: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m8FiKt5ELW0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0BW6s...Q4sECFRY1qgodIwMAWjIHcmVsYXRlZEjt2pDyrcXY4JsB

Karas, and his followers, flatten it to the largest degree: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sQSajXq-QhE my recording of Vatopaidi and of Angelopoulos reflect this practice.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ufU6lAxVkI8 this one is slightly flattened, but very subtly.

And Pringos just bypasses the whole issue: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QINWdelhOIQ
 
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basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
Hi Gabriel,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Do we really need to conceive of these fthorae in terms of "upper and lower bounds of tetrachords or pentachords," though?

You're welcome, and yes, we really do need to conceive of the Pa and Ke diatonic fthoræ in terms of the tetrachord/pentachord system, because that's the only reason they exist as two separate fthoræ and the only way to comprehensively understand their function. Last night, I was thinking about whether or not the notation could be simplified and these two fthoræ combined. I concluded that combining them into a single fthora would lead to some ambiguous cases, which is why the Three Teachers must have employed two separate fthoræ in the first place. Consider the last 1001 formula on page 863. Now suppose we had to put a diatonic fthora on the third syllable, which is Ke. If only one diatonic fthora for Ke existed, then how would we know whether the high Vou on the third syllable should be natural or two units flat? From oral tradition, it's obviously two units flat (i.e., a distance of 866.67 cents from Di rather than 900 cents). But if we only had a single diatonic fthora to put on Ke, the high Vou would be ambiguous, because we wouldn't know if the Ke was supposed to represent a Pa (in which case the high Vou would be two units flat) or a Ke (in which case the high Vou would be natural). This is a similar case to what I showed in examples 3 and Rule 4 in my previous message. So two separate fthoræ really are necessary in order to disambiguate these two cases, precisely because of the use of the diatonic scale in different tetrachord and pentachord contexts.

I completely agree with your point that "among some earlier composers, the fthoræ were perhaps not used as rigidly or as analytically as we use them today". Moreover, that makes intuitive sense, because the notation has only gradually evolved to greater degrees of precision over time. You give many great examples of how the classical scores don't always explicitly notate many of the things that we take for granted in performance practice today. I wasn't suggesting that we read the scores with a prescriptivist outlook; on the contrary, my philosophy is that theory and notation are only useful as a means to the end of traditional performance (which itself is only useful as a means to the end of prayer).

I also agree that "Bou does not exhibit that kind of flatness in Plagal Fourth Mode cadences such as these" in the vast majority of cases, so the fact that Vou is flat here is most certainly an exception to the usual intervals of this mode. Another similar exception can be found in the Alleluia of the verse «Ινατί εφρύαξαν έθνη» in the «Μακάριος ανήρ» of Manuel. In that score, the flat on the Vou is explicitly notated as an accidental, but I've seen other scores where it's merely implicit. I'm certain that you've misunderstood what I meant by "law of attraction." You'll notice that I intentionally didn't define this term, and that's because I don't think it can be defined formally. When I was speaking about the law of attraction earlier, I wasn't referring to the usual intervals for this mode alone, but to the oral tradition in its entirety, including the usual intervals as well as exceptional cases like these. I haven't tried to define the law of attraction formally because I have observed that there is so much legitimate variation in performance practice and so many exceptions to various rules that any attempt to systematically define all attractions is bound to create more problems than it solves. The way I was taught Byzantine music, oral tradition is king, and I believe that melodic attractions are best learned by ear and not from reading a theory book. In my opinion, it's easy to veer into Scholastic tendencies when it comes to defining melodic attractions. While it's interesting stuff to think about, I'd rather err on the side of not defining them too formally rather than defining them incorrectly and risk altering the oral tradition unintentionally.

Basil
 
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