1960ies at the Patriarchate

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
#1
The following interesting bit of information was posted in the byzantinechant forum by Apostolos Combitsis and comes from Archon Domestikos Miltiadis Pappas.

After the deportation of Stanitsas from Constantinople, Danielidis goes to the right analogion, with Fr. Tsinaras on the left as Lambadarios (April 1964). However, Athenagoras did not give the offikion of Archon Protopsaltis to Danielidis because he didn't like him. He didn't like him because he knew the taxis of the Patriarchate, even when he was Domestikos to Pringos, and this is why he never gave him the offikion. Also, Danielidis had his son at the Analogion, and because both he and his son were overweight, he was often made fun of by the Patriarch and other hierarchs. Perhaps as a result of the "abuse", Danielidis dies of a stroke in January of 1965. Fr. Tsinaras, who was acting as the Archon Lambadarios, was by himself for two months. Then, Athenagoras calls Leonidas Asteris three times to invite him to the Patriarchate, but he declined. (Mention must be made that Asteris used to chant at many panigyria in Constantinople at the time, so Athenagoras knew him well.) Because there weren't many psaltes left in Constantinople, Athenagoras brought in Vasilios Nikolaidis from St. Demetrios of Tataoulon, primarily because he also had a choir of small boys. Nikolaidis, however, had neither the voice nor the patriarchal conception of chanting. Archon Miltiadis has many recordings of Nikolaidis with two-part and four-part harmonizations, which Athenagoras would ask him to do and, because he was a good man with a kind heart, would never deny the Patriarch. He would chant HIS OWN Leitourgika, as well as those of other composers such as Hatziathanassiou, which were NEVER allowed to be chanted at the Patriarchal Church.
 

dimskrekas

Δημήτρης Σκρέκας
#2
The following interesting bit of information was posted in the byzantinechant forum by Apostolos Combitsis and comes from Archon Domestikos Miltiadis Pappas.

After the deportation of Stanitsas from Constantinople, Danielidis goes to the right analogion, with Fr. Tsinaras on the left as Lambadarios (April 1964). However, Athenagoras did not give the offikion of Archon Protopsaltis to Danielidis because he didn't like him. He didn't like him because he knew the taxis of the Patriarchate, even when he was Domestikos to Pringos, and this is why he never gave him the offikion. Also, Danielidis had his son at the Analogion, and because both he and his son were overweight, he was often made fun of by the Patriarch and other hierarchs. Perhaps as a result of the "abuse", Danielidis dies of a stroke in January of 1965. Fr. Tsinaras, who was acting as the Archon Lambadarios, was by himself for two months. Then, Athenagoras calls Leonidas Asteris three times to invite him to the Patriarchate, but he declined. (Mention must be made that Asteris used to chant at many panigyria in Constantinople at the time, so Athenagoras knew him well.) Because there weren't many psaltes left in Constantinople, Athenagoras brought in Vasilios Nikolaidis from St. Demetrios of Tataoulon, primarily because he also had a choir of small boys. Nikolaidis, however, had neither the voice nor the patriarchal conception of chanting. Archon Miltiadis has many recordings of Nikolaidis with two-part and four-part harmonizations, which Athenagoras would ask him to do and, because he was a good man with a kind heart, would never deny the Patriarch. He would chant HIS OWN Leitourgika, as well as those of other composers such as Hatziathanassiou, which were NEVER allowed to be chanted at the Patriarchal Church.
Many thanks for this valuable post, Shota. I have to admit that it sounds and reads as a fairy tale though. Special effort and strenuous -if not tiresome- research is needed if someone wants to discern and define the boundaries between truth and fiction. As time passes, this becomes even less feasible. After all, sometimes- if not always- history is written by the winners.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
#3
Many thanks for this valuable post, Shota. I have to admit that it sounds and reads as a fairy tale though. Special effort and strenuous -if not tiresome- research is needed if someone wants to discern and define the boundaries between truth and fiction. As time passes, this becomes even less feasible. After all, sometimes- if not always- history is written by the winners.
I can't comment about Danielidis' and Athenagoras' relationships, as I don't have information on it. However, it is generally admitted that Athenagoras mistreated Pringos and Stanitsas (Archon Pappas wrote that he collected documentation on paper concerning their mistreatment and punishments by Athenagoras). By extension, the same might be true in case of Danielidis as well.

As far as Nikolaidis is concerned, there things in one sense are more clear but in other sense will remain unresolved. What I mean is that most discussions about differences in chanting style lead to nowhere (this I write from my own experience, for I've witnessed instances where people "don't hear" the difference in such and such piece between, say, between Lykourgos Angelopoulos and Fr. Dionysios Firfiris). So the only thing I can say is that I hear difference between the older Patriarchal school (e.g. Nafpliotis, Pringos and Danielidis) and Nikolaidis, who to me sounds a bit odeiakon. It is know from his books and mss that he would at times use theseis unusual for the Patriarchal tradition. I also don't doubt that there exist his harmonised recordings as Archon Pappas informs us. It is also known that at times he would do things nontraditional for the Patriarchal practice (disappearence of the leitourgika in kliton, chanting "Agios o Theos" of Holy Friday in Agia (the same one done during the feast of the Holy Cross) instead of Nenano etc). Now if Nikolaidis is somebody's psaltic idol, all this is not going to sound too convincing.
 

dimskrekas

Δημήτρης Σκρέκας
#4
It is also known that at times he would do things nontraditional for the Patriarchal practice (disappearence of the leitourgika in kliton, chanting "Agios o Theos" of Holy Friday in Agia (the same one done during the feast of the Holy Cross) instead of Nenano etc). Now if Nikolaidis is somebody's psaltic idol, all this is not going to sound too convincing.
Shota, what is the evidence on the practice about chanting ''Agios o Theos'' on Holy Friday evening? I cannot recall of any patriarchal live recording with either nenano or agia singing.

Thanks,

D.
 

master_yianni

Παλαιό Μέλος
#5
Daniilides had a terrible relationship with Athenagoras. His son in law told me in person that the Patriarch did not pay him wages for 7 years prior to his death. That was also a reason that he died... He could not bare that kind of treatment, and thats why he had the heart attack.
Daniilides also had a bad relationship with Stanitsas. Yiannis Christie, his son in law, was an inner gate student of Stanitsas in Poli, but Daniilides did not allow him to mention the name Stanitsas at home or sing Stanitsa's materials while in the house.

Και στα Ελληνικα (επειδη το ζητα ο κυρ.Βαγγελης)

Ο Δανιηλιδης με τον Αθηναγορα δεν τα πηγαινανε καθολου καλα. Ο γαμπρος του Δανιηλιδη, κυρ-Γιαννης Χριστιδης (και μαθητης του Στανιτσα στην Πολη), μου ειπε κατ'ιδιαν οτι ο Πατριαρχης δεν ειχε πληρωσει τον αρχων Λαμπαδαριο για 7 χρονια. (Μαλιστα ο Δανιηλιδης ειχε αναγκη τα χρηματα επειδη ηταν φτωχη οικογενεια και με πολλες υποχρεωσεις, και ιατρικες αναγκες κτλ). Ενας απο τους λογους που ο Δανιηλιδης δεν αντεξε και πεθανε ηταν το οτι δεν αντεχε αυτη την κατασταση.

Ο Δανιηλιδης ειχε επισης κακες σχεσεις με τον Στανιτσα. Ο γαμπρος του, μου ειχε πει οτι στο σπιτι του Δανιηλιδη δεν επετρεπε να αναφερεται το ονομα του Στανιτσα, αλλα και ουτε και να ψαλλει μαθηματα κατα το υφος του Στανιτσα.
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
#6
Shota, what is the evidence on the practice about chanting ''Agios o Theos'' on Holy Friday evening? I cannot recall of any patriarchal live recording with either nenano or agia singing.

Thanks,

D.
This is what Apostolos heard from Miltiadis Pappas, who said that this is what Nikolaidis would do and that got changed after Asteris became Protopsaltis. The only thing I can think of is that it refers to the Agios o Theos of the Great Doxology (of the Great Saturday Orthros) which is in Plagal Second, unless you have something else in mind.
 

dimskrekas

Δημήτρης Σκρέκας
#7
This is what Apostolos heard from Miltiadis Pappas, who said that this is what Nikolaidis would do and that got changed after Asteris became Protopsaltis. The only thing I can think of is that it refers to the Agios o Theos of the Great Doxology (of the Great Saturday Orthros) which is in Plagal Second, unless you have something else in mind.
Shota, attached is a photo from 2009 Holy Friday. The book seems to be similar to Triantaf. Georgiadis mss. The mode is plagal second.

Επισυνάπτω φωτογραφία της Μ. Παρασκευής του 2009. Το βιβλίο μοιάζει να είναι παρόμοιο με χφφ του Τριανταφ. Γεωργιάδου. Ο ήχος του Ασματικού είναι πλ.β.

Δ.
 

Attachments

ybulbu

Μπουλμπουτζής Ιωάννης
#8
Η αντικατάσταση στην οποία αναφέρεται ο Άρχων είναι του αργού αρχαίου Νεκρωσίμου Τρισαγίου σε πλ. β΄από τον Νικολαΐδη με αυτό σε Άγια που ψάλλεται σαν ασματικό στις εορτές του Σταυρού. Ο Άρχων Πρωτοψάλτης κ. Λεωνίδας Αστέρης φρόντισε να το επαναφέρει.

ΥΓ. Ας το αποσαφηνίσει κάποιος και στα Αγγλικά διότι απαιτεί συγκεκριμένη ορολογία που δεν κατέχω.
 
#9
Επισυνάπτω φωτογραφία της Μ. Παρασκευής του 2009. Το βιβλίο μοιάζει να είναι παρόμοιο με χφφ του Τριανταφ. Γεωργιάδου. Ο ήχος του Ασματικού είναι πλ.β.
Θα μιλήσω αργότερα (βραδάκι μάλλον) με τον Άρχοντα Στέλιο Φλοίκο και θα σας δώσω λεπτομέρειες για το βιβλίο....!!! :wink::)
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
#10
I found these two recordings in my (unorganised :D) archive and decided to upload them because earlier recordings of Basileios Nikolaidis are thought to be rare. I recorded them off Stamatis Kissas' radio programme some years ago. Unfortunately the sound quality got very much distorted through the internet broadcast. If anybody has better sound quality versions, he's welcome to upload them. Notice the opening line in the doxastikon of Pentecost :cool:

P.S. Since the sound quality is low, I'm now getting doubts whether it's really Nikolaidis who chants the doxology, or maybe it's his domestikos (Hariatidis?) with a kanonarchos.
 

Attachments

#11
Θα μιλήσω αργότερα (βραδάκι μάλλον) με τον Άρχοντα Στέλιο Φλοίκο και θα σας δώσω λεπτομέρειες για το βιβλίο....!!! :wink::)
Έχουμε νέα και γι' αυτό το θεματάκι.

Λοιπόν... στην παραπάνω φωτογραφία ο Άρχων Πρωτοψάλτης κ.Λεωνίδας Αστέρης και ο Άρχων Δομέστικος Στέλιος Φλοίκος, ψάλλουν ΣΥΝΤΜΗΣΗ του αργού Νεκρώσιμου Τρισαγίου, σε Ήχο πλ.β' (και αυτό διότι η περιφορά του Επιταφίου, γίνεται στο προαύλιο του Πατριαρχικού Ναού, με αποτέλεσμα, να μην είναι εφικτό να ψάλλουν το τόσο αυτό μεγάλο σε έκταση μάθημα, όπως είναι το συγκεκριμένο).

Η σύντμηση αυτή και το Μουσικό κείμενο, που φαίνεται στη φωτογραφία, είναι του Άρχ. κ. Λεωνίδα Αστέρη.

Ελπίζω να βοήθησα .....:rolleyes:
 
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