Processions on Feasts of the Holy Cross

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
#1
Hi everyone -

A question as I am curious as to what others do:

The patriarchal hmerologion specifies the Great Doxology be chanted in Agia, undoubtedly because of the Asmatikon of the Cross as the procession is supposed to begin at that point.

At my parish (incidentally, Holy Cross) we do this procession following the liturgy.

The incorporation of the procession as part of the doxology seems to be the "correct" practice - is this true, or is the latter practice also acceptable (and not something that's come about as an accommodation)?

Does your parish hold the procession at the end of the Orthros or following the liturgy?

Thank you,

R.
 

Pappous43

Παλαιό Μέλος
#2
At my parish (incidentally, Holy Cross) we do this procession following the liturgy.

The incorporation of the procession as part of the doxology seems to be the "correct" practice - is this true, or is the latter practice also acceptable (and not something that's come about as an accommodation)?

R.
I have seen this accommodation done in some Greek villages when many people, for various reasons, come to church late in the Liturgy, and would thus miss the procession.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#3
Although almost all churches that belong to the GOA conduct the procession prior to the end of the Liturgy "for economy", the procession should be conducted exactly at the time prescribed by the Typikon of the GCC (in fact, all the typika to my knowledge have this diataxis). The GO Metropolis of Canada reverted to the appropriate rubric in the early 1990s and all priests emphasise to their parishioners the importance of getting to church early on these days.

NG
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
#4
Although almost all churches that belong to the GOA conduct the procession prior to the end of the Liturgy "for economy", the procession should be conducted exactly at the time prescribed by the Typikon of the GCC (in fact, all the typika to my knowledge have this diataxis). The GO Metropolis of Canada reverted to the appropriate rubric in the early 1990s and all priests emphasise to their parishioners the importance of getting to church early on these days.

NG
Canada...land of maple syrup, poutine, inexpensive high quality higher education....and good typikon :)
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#5
....and the land of outstanding psaltai:

1. Matthaios Andreou (+). Archon Protopsaltis of the Archdiocese formerly North and South America. Student of Emmanuel Vamvoudakis.

2. Constantin Lagouros. Archon Protopsaltis of the GO Metropolis of Toronto (Canada) and Archon Protonotarios of the GCC. Student of Antonios Syrkas, Petros Maneas, Georgios Margaritopoulos; close collaborations with George Syrkas and Emmanuel Hatzimarkos in the 50s-60s. Also studied the typikon with the great Georgios Bekatoros. Currently co-responsible for the GO Metropolis of Canada's School of BM.

3. Stylianos Tsolakidis (+). First Canonarch of Iakovos Nafpliotis.

4. Stylianos Gkiousmas (+). Student of Theodosios Georgiades.

5. Georgios Antoniadis. Student of Athanasios Panagiotidis.

6. Evangelos Voyatzis. Student of Stergios Mitsou (Rhodes).

7. Ioannis Tsamparlidis. Student of Andreas Petrocheilos.

8. Alexandros Vardas. Student of Nikolaos Xatzistamatis.

9. Fr. Konstantinos Halkias. Student of Priggos (now retired in Greece).

10. Fr. Georgios Saitanis (+). Student of Nikolaos Petridis and Spyridon Peristeris.

11. Fr. Panagiotis Salatellis. Student of Theodore Hatzitheodorou.

All the above knew and know the typikon and its history inside out. Uncompromising, they were instrumental in getting Metropolitan Sotirios out of his "Iakovite" spell and to chart new directions for Canada that in fact are a return to tradition.

NG.
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
#6
Noted - thanks for sharing. There are some good psaltai out here...but very spread out. We are wanting in a big way in the west.

R.

....and the land of outstanding psaltai:

1. Matthaios Andreou (+). Archon Protopsaltis of the Archdiocese formerly North and South America. Student of Emmanuel Vamvoudakis.

2. Constantin Lagouros. Archon Protopsaltis of the GO Metropolis of Toronto (Canada) and Archon Protonotarios of the GCC. Student of Antonios Syrkas, Petros Maneas, Georgios Margaritopoulos; close collaborations with George Syrkas and Emmanuel Hatzimarkos in the 50s-60s. Also studied the typikon with the great Georgios Bekatoros. Currently co-responsible for the GO Metropolis of Canada's School of BM.

3. Stylianos Tsolakidis (+). First Canonarch of Iakovos Nafpliotis.

4. Stylianos Gkiousmas (+). Student of Theodosios Georgiades.

5. Georgios Antoniadis. Student of Athanasios Panagiotidis.

6. Evangelos Voyatzis. Student of Stergios Mitsou (Rhodes).

7. Ioannis Tsamparlidis. Student of Andreas Petrocheilos.

8. Alexandros Vardas. Student of Nikolaos Xatzistamatis.

9. Fr. Konstantinos Halkias. Student of Priggos (now retired in Greece).

10. Fr. Georgios Saitanis (+). Student of Nikolaos Petridis and Spyridon Peristeris.

11. Fr. Panagiotis Salatellis. Student of Theodore Hatzitheodorou.

All the above knew and know the typikon and its history inside out. Uncompromising, they were instrumental in getting Metropolitan Sotirios out of his "Iakovite" spell and to chart new directions for Canada that in fact are a return to tradition.

NG.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#7
Everything has to start from the Synod. As long as the trend continues to be "dumb down the service and they will come", the actual outcome will be the opposite.

1. Replace the so-called "Black Book" of Holy Week. Use something that offers the complete Holy Week as it is in the Triodion. Bring back Holy Thursday Orthros and move the Unction to the afternoon where it belongs. Some parishes in the US follow this practice. Many don't. Some even repeat the Unction twice on the same day. There is a conceptual matter of canonicity in this, even though nothing specifically prohibits it. However, to arbitrarily excise a prescribed service for the sake of a sacrament calls into question the knowledge and the judgment of the hierarch(s) who allow this.

2. Bring back the proper practices in the Liturgy. Makarismoi instead of the antiphons for example.

3. Bring back a more complete Orthros with at least Ode 1 and 3 of the Canon and mid-Ode Kathismata. I am dismayed that in his handouts, Fr. Dedes has not included, or at least tried to start, a drive to include the Canons.

4. Put the processions where they belong in the service.

5. Full Canon on Pascha. Most parishes even omit the katavasiae!

I could go on, but everyone knows all this and more....

NG.
 

phokaeus

Παλαιό Μέλος
#8
Where do Mr. Alekos Vardas and Mr. Georgios Antoniadis currently live? As far as I know, the former was in Montreal at one point.
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#9
@phokaeys: See PM.

Also- a correction, courtesy of George Michalakis who knows him and from information from Petros Patras (Lampadarios at St. Thomas Ampelokypwn, Athens):
Mr. Alexandros Vardas is in fact Mr. Alexandros MARDAS. Somehow, the "V" stuck all these years....

NG
 
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romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
#10
Responses inline:

Everything has to start from the Synod. As long as the trend continues to be "dumb down the service and they will come", the actual outcome will be the opposite.

1. Replace the so-called "Black Book" of Holy Week. Use something that offers the complete Holy Week as it is in the Triodion. Bring back Holy Thursday Orthros and move the Unction to the afternoon where it belongs. Some parishes in the US follow this practice. Many don't. Some even repeat the Unction twice on the same day. There is a conceptual matter of canonicity in this, even though nothing specifically prohibits it. However, to arbitrarily excise a prescribed service for the sake of a sacrament calls into question the knowledge and the judgment of the hierarch(s) who allow this.

Some people cling to Pappadeas as if it were sacrosanct. The Narthex Press Holy Week book is readily available, with all of its abbreviations, mistakes, and desire to be politically sensitive and anti-semitic in its translation (so it's okay to have so-called anti-semitism in Greek??) If HTM's situation improves, their work is of incredibly high quality. I hope they produce something - though personally not fond of the Elizabethan English - soon. Then we have Fr. Lash - and I know really one person producing any of his scores in English (the Protopsalti of the SF Metropolis). Of course, these books were originally created to be read from assuming chanters would only ever chant in Greek. As such the quality and the ability for the text to be chanted from has suffered. Fr. Seraphim's Holy Week music is excellent - and I commend the inclusion of long Kathismata and arga katavasies at the conclusion of each ode.

Actually we do the Holy Thursday Orthros in our parish and distribute unction in the end for those who weren't able to attend the afternoon service (but only have the actual unction service in the afternoon). For some people they treat unction as their time of the year to go to Church, and people ask about taking home unction on a cotton swab, even though year after year the priest says that it can only be administered by a priest.

2. Bring back the proper practices in the Liturgy. Makarismoi instead of the antiphons for example.

Right - and as 'famous' as the Beatitudes are you'd otherwise only hear them at 9th hour if you attend it before Presanctified Liturgy, or Holy Thursday night.

3. Bring back a more complete Orthros with at least Ode 1 and 3 of the Canon and mid-Ode Kathismata. I am dismayed that in his handouts, Fr. Dedes has not included, or at least tried to start, a drive to include the Canons.

Yes.

4. Put the processions where they belong in the service.

Thumbs up.

5. Full Canon on Pascha. Most parishes even omit the katavasiae!

The father and uncle of a man who chants with us visited from Greece a few years ago (who I believe both chant in parishes) and we did the whole canon. I see no reason for any ommission at this service. It's the feast of feasts.

I could go on, but everyone knows all this and more....

NG.