Pace, Tempo, and Clarity

[Shota]

My friend told me that Gregory the Protopsaltis actually does have heirmologic settings of the Holy Thursday Antiphons, so I wonder if super fast chanting was happening even then.

Both Konstantinos Protopsaltes’ and Violakes’ Typika have a section on duration of some of the main services of the year. Konstantinos’ indications are mostly 30 min. or even 1 hour longer, though the opposite is also true and some services are somewhat shorter.

 

[Shota]

On a related note - not to veer too far off topic - how much has the Patriarchal style changed in the last 20-30 years, if at all? Has there been a noticeable habit of taking certain hymns or pieces slower or faster than traditionally done?

Asteris, in fact, in some cases is closer to the older tradition than Stanitsas. A remarkable case is Tin Gar Sin Mitran.

Though it makes a difference whether you sang with Athenagoras or with the current Ecumenical Patriarch.

 

[alex7305]

Papamanolakis in his interview to Damarlakis specifically made a point about the tempo and demonstrated a slower tempo for Anabathmoi that he heard from Pringos.

Indeed, but he also chanted some tropars of the canon of the second mode and the tempo is similar to Michaelide's recording

 

[mv_ns]

...a general tendency of some patriarchal chanters to speed up the ancient pieces when faced with practical time constraints rather than to sing newer compositions composed in a shorter style.

*Emphasis mine*.

This is where I get lost. What time constraints? Naturally, things have evolved over the ages, and not even the most diligent chanters cover what was chanted at every service - particularly during Holy Week - in the early centuries of the Church, when the hymnography was taking shape (the Triodion in particular), so of course, we can't have a six-hour service. Nevertheless, if we're not going to do our part responsibly, diligently, and prayerfully - be we priests, chanters, the faithful - then why bother? Why not just offer 15-minute amended services where we repeat "I Love Jesus" ad nauseam and call it a day? I hate to come off so flippant, but people are willing to waste hours on mindless entertainment, but start getting anxious as soon as they have to spend more than an hour in Church.

With respect to the point you were trying to make, I had to get this off of my chest, because it has become a major pain point whenever I take part in any service.

 

[mv_ns]

Asteris, in fact, in some cases is closer to the older tradition than Stanitsas. A remarkable case is Tin Gar Sin Mitran.

Though it makes a difference whether you sang with Athenagoras or with the current Ecumenical Patriarch.

Interesting. Could you elaborate further? Such a remark may come off as "scandalous" to some, given that Stanitsas is regarded as being one of the true, pure chanters of the Patriarchal Throne, but I am curious to gain deeper insight into the various Archon Protopsaltes and their respective styles - within the context of the Patriarchal Yphos - and who is closest to tradition.

On a related note, someone once told me that Stanitsas, in his later years, accepted Karas' theories, at the very least in terms of performance. Is there any validity to this?

 

[basil]

*Emphasis mine*.

This is where I get lost. What time constraints? Naturally, things have evolved over the ages, and not even the most diligent chanters cover what was chanted at every service - particularly during Holy Week - in the early centuries of the Church, when the hymnography was taking shape (the Triodion in particular), so of course, we can't have a six-hour service. Nevertheless, if we're not going to do our part responsibly, diligently, and prayerfully - be we priests, chanters, the faithful - then why bother? Why not just offer 15-minute amended services where we repeat "I Love Jesus" ad nauseam and call it a day? I hate to come off so flippant, but people are willing to waste hours on mindless entertainment, but start getting anxious as soon as they have to spend more than an hour in Church.

With respect to the point you were trying to make, I had to get this off of my chest, because it has become a major pain point whenever I take part in any service.

First of all, I am with you 100% with regard to the point you are making. No argument there. My track record is highly consistent in this regard.

With regard to the chanters of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I suspect the major constraint in the 19th century was political. Having read Matthew Namee's articles in English about this time period on orthodoxhistory.org, I am aware of the intense political turmoil that took place. This had an impact on the chanting at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and this impact can be felt to this day. Dr Alexander Khalil writes in his dissertation about how he found specks of black paint at the Phanar that date back to the execution of Patriarch Gregory V of Constantinople.

It seems that Orthodoxy does best when it has strong state support. There are plenty of historical examples of this. Sadly, it seems that Orthodoxy struggles to assert itself in the surrounding culture when state support is weak. I know this from experience, as my family is from northern Lebanon. By the way, my mother recalls that the Holy Thursday evening service was over 4 hours long when she was growing up in the 1960s. No 200 bpm chanting over there.

None of this excuses similar concessions in the West, where most Orthodox Christians are privileged with wealth and prosperity. It is precisely this privilege that obliges us to strive even more deeply to preserve the spiritual traditions of our ancestors.

 

[Shota]

Interesting. Could you elaborate further? Such a remark may come off as "scandalous" to some, given that Stanitsas is regarded as being one of the true, pure chanters of the Patriarchal Throne, but I am curious to gain deeper insight into the various Archon Protopsaltes and their respective styles - within the context of the Patriarchal Yphos - and who is closest to tradition.

On a related note, someone once told me that Stanitsas, in his later years, accepted Karas' theories, at the very least in terms of performance. Is there any validity to this?

Stanitsas has never embraced Karas' theories and has always been their vocal critic.

Older recordings use a moderate pace for "Tin Gar Sin Mitran". With Stanitsas there is a noticeable acceleration, probably caused by the fact that Athenagoras rushed through the secret prayers. These days you often see uninformed people who assume that the way Stanitsas sang "Tin Gar Sin Mitran" is how it is always supposed to be done, and those who don't do it, do so because they are incapable of doing it.

Here is Asteris:

Σύλλογος Μουσικοφίλων Κωνσταντινουπόλως

 

[mv_ns]

With regard to the chanters of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, I suspect the major constraint in the 19th century was political. Having read Matthew Namee's articles in English about this time period on orthodoxhistory.org, I am aware of the intense political turmoil that took place. This had an impact on the chanting at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and this impact can be felt to this day. Dr Alexander Khalil writes in his dissertation about how he found specks of black paint at the Phanar that date back to the execution of Patriarch Gregory V of Constantinople.

Could you provide more insight into this point? With respect to the socio-political difficulties (though, even such a term is insufficient) of the 19th and even 20th centuries, I'd be curious to learn more about the lasting psychological/spiritual effects on the Patriarchate today - not only in terms of chanting as you mention, but also in terms of daily life and the overall "spirit" there. I know many times his All-Holiness has mentioned that they feel like second-class citizens, but as you mentioned chanting, what is life like within the walls of the Phanar?

I know this from experience, as my family is from northern Lebanon. By the way, my mother recalls that the Holy Thursday evening service was over 4 hours long when she was growing up in the 1960s. No 200 bpm chanting over there.

Very interesting! I organised and published the services for Great and Holy Thursday, Friday, and Saturday morning, as the Serbian Church (where I am originally from) does not have these texts readily available, so priests have to piecemeal whatever they can, and even then, services are under the two-hour mark.

Making use of the Greek/English text fro AGES Initiative, along with a few other Greek books/sources - including YouTube videos of the services at the Patriarchate - I compiled Serbian/English books for the services. All in all, Great and Holy Thursday came in just over three-and-a-half hours, while Great and Holy Friday was about the same. Everything was taken at a moderate pace, with the exception of the Canons on Thursday and Friday, which were taken a bit faster, because I love a lively Canon. But that is why at the Pre-Resurrectional Midnight Service, I took Kimati Thalassis (Canon of Great and Holy Saturday) at a slower, consistent pace, to build up the anticipation.

 

[mv_ns]

Stanitsas has never embraced Karas' theories and has always been their vocal critic.

Of this I was aware, and several individuals have pointed this out to me. It makes sense that the person who claimed that Stanitsas embraced Karas' theories was himself a student of Angelopoulos, and therefore sees Karas as the only valid method, claiming that Patriarchal style chanters "hide behind the name of the Patriarchate" and "...maybe they're good chanters, but they don't know Theory."

Not to soil this topic thread by mentioning Karas and risk bringing on another flame war, but what good are the theory and logarithmic calculations that Karas chanters are obsessed with, when they chant with improper technique, producing sharp, nasal vocal qualities, on top of an incorrect klimaka...

Older recordings use a moderate pace for "Tin Gar Sin Mitran". With Stanitsas there is a noticeable acceleration, probably caused by the fact that Athenagoras rushed through the secret prayers. These days you often see uninformed people who assume that the way Stanitsas sang "Tin Gar Sin Mitran" is how it is always supposed to be done, and those who don't do it, do so because they are incapable of doing it.

Here is Asteris:

Σύλλογος Μουσικοφίλων Κωνσταντινουπόλως

Beautiful! I love Asteris' rendition, which keeps the tempo in line with the Axion Estin you would take in its place outside of Great Lent. On that note, I know Stanitsas would noticeably accelerate the longer-form Patera Yion and the rest of the Leitoyrgika for the Liturgy of St. Basil during Great Lent, as evidenced here. Neochoritis does the same, though slightly slower. Which one is closer to tradition, would you say?

 

[basil]

Could you provide more insight into this point? With respect to the socio-political difficulties (though, even such a term is insufficient) of the 19th and even 20th centuries, I'd be curious to learn more about the lasting psychological/spiritual effects on the Patriarchate today - not only in terms of chanting as you mention, but also in terms of daily life and the overall "spirit" there. I know many times his All-Holiness has mentioned that they feel like second-class citizens, but as you mentioned chanting, what is life like within the walls of the Phanar?

I have never been to the Phanar, but Dr Alexander Khalil's dissertation in English provides a fascinating window into that world. You can read it here. The black paint affair is described on page 197. I also remember reading somewhere that the Ottomans imposed curfews (I can't remember the source for this) which may have had an impact on service length. My point is that the community was struggling to survive. What is normally impermissible possibly becomes tolerable when there is no other way for a group to satisfy their basic needs (see e.g. Maslow's hierarchy of needs).

I want to emphasize again that none of this excuses similar concessions in the West. We are not facing the same life-or-death conditions that were faced in the 19th century Ottoman Empire. As you noted, "people are willing to waste hours on mindless entertainment". So the above reasoning does not apply today, and therefore we are obliged not to permit similar concessions today.

But that is why at the Pre-Resurrectional Midnight Service, I took Kimati Thalassis (Canon of Great and Holy Saturday) at a slower, consistent pace, to build up the anticipation.

In this regard you are consistent with Stanitsas who gives a tempo of 112 bpm for Kymati Thalassis in his Triodion.

 

[basil]

Tangentially related to this thread: the recordings I listen to on YouTube from Romania all adhere to the older practice (still preserved, I think, in Greek monasteries) of chanting each troparion of the Anabathmoi twice (A, A, B, B, Glory, C, Both now, C) rather than the modern parish practice of chanting each troparion once (A, B, Glory; both now, C). In contrast the tradition in the Middle East has deteriorated even further, where the Kathismata and Anabathmoi are often read instead of chanted (a deplorable practice which has also spread to many Antiochian parishes in the USA). Some other examples of "negative evolution" where concessions became common practice, even encoded in the Typikon:

• The modern Greek practice of displacing the reading of the Gospel to the end of the Katavasia of the 8th Ode, immediately before the Magnificat
• The modern Greek practice of displacing the Lamentations on Holy Friday evening until after the Canon

 

[Shota]

On that note, I know Stanitsas would noticeably accelerate the longer-form Patera Yion and the rest of the Leitoyrgika for the Liturgy of St. Basil during Great Lent, as evidenced here. Neochoritis does the same, though slightly slower. Which one is closer to tradition, would you say?

These are things where chanters depend on priests, no hard rules here. The main point to keep in mind is to give a special flow to the melody, which doesn’t amount to mere acceleration.

 

[giorgosgoudi]

There are not the same people who would waste hours for entertainment these who attend the mass.

They are mostly old people, or hard working parents with their kids and is not an easy task to follow even the current status of Sunday mass and holidays.

Chanters are usually overtired too, so it's physically impossible to lengthen anything. Someone young and inexperienced may try to add things, only to discover that he can't afford this long-term.

 

[mv_ns]

Having been away on business, I see this this message now and have time to reply.

There are not the same people who would waste hours for entertainment these who attend the mass.

Agreed. I meant it generally. Many faithful (those who regularly attend church), and even priests, start getting antsy once a service becomes "too long". I know many priests who finish a Liturgy in 50 mins.

They are mostly old people, or hard working parents with their kids and is not an easy task to follow even the current status of Sunday mass and holidays.

Agreed, and I completely understand; by the time the weekend rolls around, you just want to take as much time as possible in the next two days to relax and prepare for the upcoming responsibilities of the week ahead.

Chanters are usually overtired too, so it's physically impossible to lengthen anything. Someone young and inexperienced may try to add things, only to discover that he can't afford this long-term.

I disagree with this on principle. If we begin by excusing poor performance with, "well, they're tired", then why even bother having a service of any kind? Why bother having chanters? We can just have simple reader services, and no one has to ever make an effort. It's not a question of being tired, or having a plethora of activities outside of Church, but if one has committed to serving as a chanter - even just once a week - then should not every note and every word be their best performance? Should we, as chanters - as guardians of a centuries-old tradition - not strive for excellence at every turn? I cannot begin to tell you how many Sundays (even Presanctifiedes during Great Lent, and vigils as well) there were where I was at the end of my rope, dead tired...and yet, I pushed and made sure that in serving God and the Faithful, my "performance" would be of the best quality possible.

Long-and-short of it: The only way to preserve chanting not merely as an art form, but as a crucial part of liturgical life, is for us to no longer accept mediocrity, and to hold ourselves and our chanting to the utmost standards befitting Divine service.

 

[basil]

Long-and-short of it: The only way to preserve chanting not merely as an art form, but as a crucial part of liturgical life, is for us to no longer accept mediocrity, and to hold ourselves and our chanting to the utmost standards befitting Divine service.

Well said. But preserving chanting merely as an art form is the direction in which mainstream Orthodoxy in the West, broadly defined (not to dwell on the subtleties of any particular jurisdiction), is heading. A (tacit) prerequisite for participation in modern Western culture is abandoning claims of moral authority. Without that, you have an institution with a rich history and theology that functions largely as a museum rather than a living spiritual manifestation of God.

 

[giorgosgoudi]

#nv_ns, for many people the weekend has not two days but only one, Sunday. So, the effort is going to be harder.

As for chanters, in most cases we receive this duty, just not to leave the church without chanting. It's not any profit to this, or it is completely marginal if not loss. So people should always remember that for the man on the chantry position before to criticize his stance. If they hired a dedicated professional, the cost would be greater than they could afford.

Current status is a compromise between quantity and quality. Masses should have a realistic frequency and duration in order to contain some Byzantine art and not be completely plain.

A good example is the upcoming phase of paraclesis. A chanter may sacrifice both work and holidays in order to attend them.

 

[Shota]

Small parenthesis: from what I gather, the same chanters who complain about their exhaustion, the length and frequency of services, as well as low wages (which are actually true to varying degrees), are usually the ones who are against employing females at the analogion (who coincidentally talk far less if at all about hardships of being a church servant).

 

[giorgosgoudi]

Long-and-short of it: The only way to preserve chanting not merely as an art form, but as a crucial part of liturgical life, is for us to no longer accept mediocrity, and to hold ourselves and our chanting to the utmost standards befitting Divine service.

This concerns quality. Anybody who believes that, and can do it, surely does it. The question is what to do with quantity. This depends not only from the chanter's good will. It depends from the priest and of course the people. It depends from society in general. As it becomes more and more secular, things will become harder.

You talked about greek churches versus other orthodox churches. It's a fact that greek people and institutions are very disorganised and everything works without proper staffing, instruction and infrastructure.

Comparing Greece, Serbia and Georgia, we see that greek annual economic production is 22,595$ per capita, serbian 10,849$ and georgian 7,600$. To achieve this output without proper preparation, Greeks have to make everything loosely and in a hurry, including church services. Hope that improves in the future.


But it's better to talk with exact details of what is loose or wrong, how widespread and how serious.