Pace, Tempo, and Clarity

[mv_ns]

Greetings to everyone!

Having spent some time chanting in the Greek Church here in America, I've noticed something rather interesting - and troubling, frankly - about the chanters. Namely, they have an unfortunate habit of practically running through the Kekragaria, Apolytikia, Theos Kyrios...everything, practically, with the exception of the herouvika; speed-reading and mumbling the paroimion, exapsalmoi, etc.; generally chanting with a lack of clarity in terms of the given tone.

Coming from the Western musical tradition, the Byzantine musical tradition was exciting, and I taught myself chanting through books and recordings (of the Patriarchate primarily). Aside from the regal and majestic characteristics of chanters such as Asteris and Emmanouilidis, their phenomenal diction and enunciation, control of tempo, additional emphasis of certain syllables and words given the context of the hymn, have almost exclusively influenced my chanting. I know that Asteris had a career as an operatic tenor in the Istanbul Opera, which can be heard in the delivery of his chanting, as well as the influence of his training with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.

Sadly, it seems that every chanter in the GOA (that I have personally come across, at least) would rather rush through the service just to get it done than take their time and focus on proper tempo, clarity, enunciation, and highlighting the immense beauty of the melodies.

I have never been to Greece, but I am curious if this is a common issue there? Are chanters more "relaxed", or do they prefer to get as much done in as short of a time as possible?

May the Panagia shelter us all.

Regards,
M

 

[Shota]

You can see anything in Greece these days.

 

[MakariosC]

My holiday experience in Greece parallels Shota's, though he has exponentially greater experience.

I however have not found US Greek Orthodox cantors to generally rush through services. I would however say:

I have noticed that even some top places might slightly rush (or probably it'd be more accurate to say they focus less on) things to a greater or lesser degree at the beginning of Orthros..... until the Praises; from the Praises on such a cantor's stand would play their A game.

I doubt this needs to be said in this forum, but hirmologic hymns can be sung very fast. However, they do not need to sound rushed - I played someone Vatopedi's recording of a Paraklesis and they remarked that even though it is very fast (my guess ~180 beats per minute) it does not sound remotely rushed.

Finally, my experiences with a few Greek livestreams suggests rushing is not universal. Here is last Sunday at the ones I occasionally monitor:

St. Dimitrios Thessaloniki
The Cathedral of Limmasol
There was a Romanian youtube channel that had links apparently to occasional livestreams from St. George's in Constantinople; I can't find it right now unfortunately.

 

[mv_ns]

You can see anything in Greece these days.

Are there no forces attempting to establish consistency in the chanting? Putting aside the differences in yphos (Patriarchal, Thessaloniki, Athenian, etc.), does no one - either within the Church, or even amongst the chanters (individuals, certain organisations, or even particular schools) - seek to "lay down the law" and ensure that everyone (in as much as possible) chants correctly?

 

[mv_ns]

My holiday experience in Greece parallels Shota's, though he has exponentially greater experience.

I however have not found US Greek Orthodox cantors to generally rush through services. I would however say:

I have noticed that even some top places might slightly rush (or probably it'd be more accurate to say they focus less on) things to a greater or lesser degree at the beginning of Orthros..... until the Praises; from the Praises on such a cantor's stand would play their A game.

I doubt this needs to be said in this forum, but hirmologic hymns can be sung very fast. However, they do not need to sound rushed - I played someone Vatopedi's recording of a Paraklesis and they remarked that even though it is very fast (my guess ~180 beats per minute) it does not sound remotely rushed.

Finally, my experiences with a few Greek livestreams suggests rushing is not universal. Here is last Sunday at the ones I occasionally monitor:

St. Dimitrios Thessaloniki
The Cathedral of Limmasol
There was a Romanian youtube channel that had links apparently to occasional livestreams from St. George's in Constantinople; I can't find it right now unfortunately.

It could be a simple matter of the particular churches where I have visited/chanted have chanters who prefer to rush services.

As it concerns Orthros, why wouldn't chanters be on their A-game from the 'Theos Kyrios'? Why wait until the Praises?

Yes, the Paraklesis Canon from Vatopedi sounds perfectly fine. However, a big issue I have (and I noticed it immediately in the recordings of the Cathedral Church in Thessaloniki in the link you provided) - primarily in the US, as well as through recordings from Greece - is the unfortunate habit of speed-reading or speed-reciting the Triasgion, Pater Imon, Exapsalmoi, Kataksioson, etc. in a quiet, muddled voice; should these not be recited slowly and clearly?

As for the Romanian channel you mentioned, here you go.

 

[basil]

A general lack of concern for the spirituality of the Divine Services combined with the jadedness that comes along with years of mediocre parish life in the GOA. I used to attend a GOA parish where the proistamenos had a Jekyll and Hyde approach to this. When the church was half empty, he would encourage us to take our time and chant things properly. When the church was more full, with younger families and children, he more or less butchered the services. Speed was the name of the game — get them in and out. Bread and circuses. I remember one Holy Week where the priest was in full-on rush mode during the Unction service. By that point I was jaded enough myself that — to make a point about how ridiculous it was — I matched his style and went over the top with fast tempo, a perfunctory style of reading, and zero effort to put any meaningful analysis or depth or beauty into the chanting. A few of the more sincere parishioners approached me afterward and asked me what was wrong, but the priest praised me. I no longer attend that parish.

 

[MakariosC]

It could be a simple matter of the particular churches where I have visited/chanted have chanters who prefer to rush services.

As it concerns Orthros, why wouldn't chanters be on their A-game from the 'Theos Kyrios'? Why wait until the Praises?

Yes, the Paraklesis Canon from Vatopedi sounds perfectly fine. However, a big issue I have (and I noticed it immediately in the recordings of the Cathedral Church in Thessaloniki in the link you provided) - primarily in the US, as well as through recordings from Greece - is the unfortunate habit of speed-reading or speed-reciting the Triasgion, Pater Imon, Exapsalmoi, Kataksioson, etc. in a quiet, muddled voice; should these not be recited slowly and clearly?

As for the Romanian channel you mentioned, here you go.

Indeed.

As far as "why focus more at the Praises?", I have no idea and am not inclined to ask. I might guess that it's because very few/no one is around at the early stage, while more "customers" are around during the praises and doxology. (hopefully, depending on the parish, a majority by the doxology. And here the phenomenon i observed is opposite @basil 's)

And as far as the speed at the opening of orthros, that's totally a matter of judgment. I might say that I attend both a Greek parish and then a non-Greek parish, the latter of which I perceive as significantly slower (and often to slow).

I took the timing of the priest's "Evlogitos o Theos" to the final Alleluia of the Hexapsalms for the past two Sundays. The Greek parish is 12:02 (I did Psalm 102 in 1:18), non-Greek parish is 15:56 (13% of 1.5 hours of Orthros vs. 27% of 1 hour of Orthros). The Cathedral at Limmasol that I linked to above is 15:35, St Dimitrios in Thessaloniki 9:46. (and while the folks at St Dimitrios are fast, I don't think they rush per se and they seemed pretty clear to me). Again, "how long this should be" is a judgment call in my book.

 

[basil]

I might guess that it's because very few/no one is around at the early stage, while more "customers" are around during the praises and doxology.

There was plenty of that at my former GOA parish, as well. On a typical Sunday the Protopsaltis would read the Greek newspaper during the beginning of the Orthros and only start chanting sometime around the Evlogitaria, leaving it to others to cover the early portions of the service. And during Holy Week he did not show up at all until Holy Thursday evening, leaving it to others to cover the less popular services earlier in the week.

 

[mv_ns]

A general lack of concern for the spirituality of the Divine Services combined with the jadedness that comes along with years of mediocre parish life in the GOA. I used to attend a GOA parish where the proistamenos had a Jekyll and Hyde approach to this. When the church was half empty, he would encourage us to take our time and chant things properly. When the church was more full, with younger families and children, he more or less butchered the services. Speed was the name of the game — get them in and out. Bread and circuses. I remember one Holy Week where the priest was in full-on rush mode during the Unction service. By that point I was jaded enough myself that — to make a point about how ridiculous it was — I matched his style and went over the top with fast tempo, a perfunctory style of reading, and zero effort to put any meaningful analysis or depth or beauty into the chanting. A few of the more sincere parishioners approached me afterward and asked me what was wrong, but the priest praised me. I no longer attend that parish.

That's a shame. We can never judge someone's devotion and what they carry in their heart, but actions speak volumes.

I can't wrap my head around this obsession with time and getting things done quickly; why can't we just take our time, make a prayerful effort, and be present in the moment?

 

[mv_ns]

Indeed.

As far as "why focus more at the Praises?", I have no idea and am not inclined to ask. I might guess that it's because very few/no one is around at the early stage, while more "customers" are around during the praises and doxology.

God and his multitude of angels are around, hence "Theos Kyrios kai epefanen imin"

I suppose personal pride is insufficient to motivate chanters to give their best in everything they chant?

 

[basil]

I can't wrap my head around this obsession with time and getting things done quickly; why can't we just take our time, make a prayerful effort, and be present in the moment?

Because many clergy and chanters are incredibly jaded, especially in the USA. Years of mediocre parish life will do that to you, no matter how good your intentions originally are. The only winning move is not to play.

I remember a talk (possibly by the late Fr Ephrem Lash?) that reflected on the opening words of the Divine Liturgy "Καιρός τοῦ ποιῆσαι τῷ Κυρίῳ" indicating that the time of the Liturgy is an intersection with eternity (χρόνος vs καιρός).

I suppose personal pride is insufficient to motivate chanters to give their best in everything they chant?

If it were sufficient, then there wouldn't be so many chanters who tolerate and adhere to the many horrible dictates from clergy and hierarchs with regard to chanting (whether it comes to selection of texts/music, adherence to the Typikon, the role of the chanter with regard to the Sunday Divine Liturgy, the clerical nature of the office, observance of any modicum of Orthodox spirituality, etc).

I couldn't tolerate it, which is why I am now Protopsaltis in Exile. I will return when the occupation ends.

 

[Shota]

This is the tempo they sang Sunday kanons (full kanons, not only the 1st and 3rd odes) at the Patriarchate during Nafpliotes' times.

It's magnificent chanting, without dragging around, by a long retired chanter. But you won't hear this stuff any more.

 

[alex7305]

This is the tempo they sang Sunday kanons (full kanons, not only the 1st and 3rd odes) at the Patriarchate during Nafpliotes' times.

It's magnificent chanting, without dragging around, by a long retired chanter. But you won't hear this stuff any more.

Indeed, Michaelides' execution is magnificent, however I think the tempo was faster during the services. Listen, for example, to this recording of Michaelides, which coincides with Papamanolakis' chanting style in one of his interviews. I think that this is the way Pringos, Stanitsas, Daniilides follow in their recordings of the Sunday of Orthodoxy, and Nicolaides and Tsinaras in the ninth ode of 1 January. One variation (less flow than the previous ones, but still no rush) I hear in Asteris and today in Neochoritis. I imagine that the truncation of the canon in recent decades plays an important role. However, there is also testimony (I am aware of an interview with Mr. Andrikos) that many odes were also sung by Asteris, at least up to the sixth. It would be interesting to compare the recordings with these testimonies, as well as the patriarchical performance of the canons in general.

 

[MakariosC]

God and his multitude of angels are around, hence "Theos Kyrios kai epefanen imin"

I suppose personal pride is insufficient to motivate chanters to give their best in everything they chant?

I might take a different view. If you have one hour Orthros and one hour Sunday liturgy (which is very quick but doable), or especially if both are 1.5 hours long and you're just about the only one singing, and standing on marble the whole time, you only have so much energy and effort. I'd emphasize the Praises-Doxology, Epistle, Cherubikon, Anaphora/Axion Estin, and Koinonikon (how long will that be? at least in my parishes, it's easily 10 minutes each Sunday just for receipt of the Holy Mystery) while the other parts would be based on a bit of rehearsal but otherwise on memory. (assuming you know the Anastasimatarion and your chosen weekly settings down pat, of course)

But again that only justifies relative emphasis; it does not justify sloppiness.

@basil I'm very sorry to hear you feel this way; a situation like you describe is something I fear, especially since I've only at this point begun learning the Anastasimatarion and see ahead of me years of effort to get all the basics down. Some random thoughts:

- there is no such a thing as a perfect parish. A parish (or type of parish: e.g. in the US ethnic parishes vs convert parishes) that's strong in one area will often have weaknesses elsewhere that other parishes are stronger at. This is not a justification for tolerating indifference and mediocrity, but again the grass is generally not greener on the other side of the fence. (non-native English speakers: that is a common English idiom meaning that if you run away from one problem other problems could exist in the place you run to)

- we are under obedience to our ecclesial superiors; having grown up in an environment with a fair degree of religious defiance I dread getting on that path again. But at a certain point one might have to.

- indifferent, half-hearted participation in religion is a common phenomenon, at least in places where local religious community competes with secularism and pastimes (a sociological question beyond the scope of this post). I might note that, in the Latin (Roman Catholic) church, there's some romanticism among some for the ostensibly better "pre-Vatican II days", but even in that time when their institutional presence and conformity was much stronger, it is documentably clear that there was plenty of sloppiness and indifference. (30 minute spoken Sunday liturgies to get people out quickly so they could go fishing, to soccer, or whatever). Point is, such an attitude may indicate the human side of the institution is stronger than the people's fervor. But again I don't want to get into sociology here.

- IMO the best argument for our music is our performances; tailored to some (but only some) degree to what the local parish can swallow. Dr Alexander Lingas I think in a recent interview answered "is Byzantine Chant, or Znameny chant, or Russian polyphony, or Amero-Greek Choral music, better?" with something like "the best is the one that's works best for the particular parish", to which I might say applies to our choice of how much English and how ornate our repretoire choices are. (again within reason)


What do you mean by this, in the context of this discussion? (I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, and have an idea of what you mean, but just am curious to hear more)

the clerical nature of the office

 

[basil]

The office of the chanter is a minor clerical order to which a man is tonsured and ordained through cheirothesia. Chanting is therefore not merely a musical hobby but rather a clerical role, with all its concomitant moral and spiritual obligations. Seeing chanting listed on church web sites on the "lay ministries" page alongside alongside youth groups, philanthropic outreach groups, etc. completely misses the point. And this has a practical impact that is relevant to this thread. At my former parish, an assistant priest once tried to increase participation by asking members of the laity to read the Psalms (from the pews, not the analogion). They had a difficult time reading the Psalms and even giggled. As I expressed my consternation over at the analogion, a prominent GOA chanter ignored my objections and defended the situation. This was one of many events that led me to stop chanting.

 

[mv_ns]

I couldn't tolerate it, which is why I am now Protopsaltis in Exile. I will return when the occupation ends.

Sorry to hear that, but I completely understand. I myself was chased out of two (!!) churches for my chanting. The stories I could tell...

 

[mv_ns]

This is the tempo they sang Sunday kanons (full kanons, not only the 1st and 3rd odes) at the Patriarchate during Nafpliotes' times.

It's magnificent chanting, without dragging around, by a long retired chanter. But you won't hear this stuff any more.

Absolutely beautiful. Clean, majestic, patriarchal style. A nice, consistent tempo that allows the melody to "breathe".

 

[mv_ns]

It would be interesting to compare the recordings with these testimonies, as well as the patriarchical performance of the canons in general.

Until I find the time to compare various recordings, I have to wonder: were (and are they, today) the Canons chanted faster in the Patriarchal Church? I know that every recording I've heard of the Katavasies has them at a slower, consistent pace, but I don't recall ever hearing any recordings of the actual Canons.

On a related note - not to veer too far off topic - how much has the Patriarchal style changed in the last 20-30 years, if at all? Has there been a noticeable habit of taking certain hymns or pieces slower or faster than traditionally done?

 

[basil]

Here is a recording of Neochoritis singing the Holy Thursday evening antiphons in 2002. His tempo for the sticheraric portions is above 220 bpm, faster even than the 200 bpm given on page 339 of Stanitsas' Triodion. While he is able to pull it off, I think this exemplifies a general tendency of some patriarchal chanters to speed up the ancient pieces when faced with practical time constraints rather than to sing newer compositions composed in a shorter style. To me it seems like a valiant but misguided sense of conservatism. If faced with such a time constraint, I would use an heirmologic melody rather than speed up a sticheraric melody that much to meet the time constraint. My friend told me that Gregory the Protopsaltis actually does have heirmologic settings of the Holy Thursday Antiphons, so I wonder if super fast chanting was happening even then.

One can see a similar process taking place with Tin Gar Sin Mitran, which is a truncated portion of a composition by the 11th century composer Xenos Koronis. Even when the first half (Epi Soi Chaire) is intoned rather than chanted and the second half (Tin Gar Sin Mitran) is chanted very quickly, this is still impractical in many situations, leading to the modern Greek practice of chanting the whole piece in (new) sticheraric style.

 

[Shota]

Indeed, Michaelides' execution is magnificent, however I think the tempo was faster during the services. Listen, for example, to this recording of Michaelides, which coincides with Papamanolakis' chanting style in one of his interviews.

Papamanolakis in his interview to Damarlakis specifically made a point about the tempo and demonstrated a slower tempo for Anabathmoi that he heard from Pringos.