Hagiopolites Choir directed by Ioannis Arvanitis in Sicily

[greek487]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuJR...layer_embedded



(From Richard Barrett's blog at http://leitourgeia.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/hey-i-know-that-guy/)

In March of 2008, Ioannis Arvanitis directed the Hagiopolites Choir at a conference focusing on Dom Lorenzo Tardo, an Italian musicologist who was evidently interested in the reception and transmission of Byzantine chant in Sicily’s Greco-Albanian colonies. K. Arvanitis also delivered a paper called “Towards a Modern Interpration of Grottaferrata’s Musical Manuscripts” (seems to me I heard somewhere he knew something about those). The concert was in the Cathedral of St. Demetrius.

The location of the conference was a place called Piana degli Albanesi, one of the Greco-Albanian colonies that interested Tardo so much, dating back to the end of the fifteenth century. Like the abbey in Grottaferrata, they are Byzantine Catholics who are Italian by geography and communion but Greek and/or Albanian by culture and liturgy.

The “Arvanites,” of course, are Greeks whose heritage is Albanian; K. Arvanitis’ involvement certainly seems fitting.


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For more information and relevant links visit Richard Barrett's blog at http://leitourgeia.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/hey-i-know-that-guy/




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[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Mr. Nassis,

You stated: "The “Arvanites,” of course, are Greeks whose heritage is Albanian"

I dare you to call an Arvaniti an Albanian. At the very least you will get slapped verbally. At the worst.....

For your education, and I mean this respectfully:

Arvanites (Greek: Αρβανίτες, Arvanitika: Arbëreshë or Αρbε̰ρεσ̈ε̰) are a population group in Greece who traditionally speak Arvanitika, a dialect of the Albanian language. They settled in Greece during the late Middle Ages and were the dominant population element of some regions of the Peloponnese and Attica until the 19th century.[1]They call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arbëror (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.[2] Arvanites today self-identify as Greeks[3] as the result of a process of assimilation. Arvanitika is in a state of attrition due to language shift towards Greek and large-scale internal migration to the cities and subsequent intermingling of the population during the 20th century.

And a little something in Greek:

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Αρβανίτες

Προέλευση και ιστορία του ονόματος

Οι Αρβανίτες πρωτοαναφέρονται στις Βυζαντινές πηγές από τον Μιχαήλ Ατταλειάτη και αργότερα – σαν Αρβανίτες από το Άρβανον – στο βιβλίο της Άννας Κομνηνής, "Αλεξιάδα". Το βιβλίο ασχολείται με τις ταραχές στην περιοχή του Αρβάνου που προκάλεσαν οι Νορμανδοί κατά τη διάρκεια της βασιλείας του πατέρα της, Αυτοκράτορα Αλέξιου Α' Κομνηνού (1081 – 1118). Στην «Ιστορία» (1079 – 1080 μ.Χ.), ο Βυζαντινός ιστορικός Μιχαήλ Ατταλιάτης ήταν ο πρώτος που ανέφερε τους Αλβανούς ως έχοντες λάβει μέρος σε εξέγερση εναντίον της Κωνσταντινούπολης το 1043 μ.Χ. και τους Αρβανίτες ως υποτελείς του Δούκα του Δυρραχίου.

Ο όρος Αρβανίτικα προέρχεται από τη λέξη Αρβανίται. Η ετυμολογία του ελληνικού επιθέτου Αρβανίτικα προέρχεται από τη ρίζα Αρβανίτ- του ουσιαστικού Αρβανίτης, σύμφωνα με το λεξικό του Γιάννη Κουλάκη.[11] Σύμφωνα με μια θεωρία η λέξη Αρβανίτης έχει κοινή προέλευση με τη λέξη Αλβανός, με αλλαγή των συμφώνων ρ-λ.

Οι Αρβανίτες, κυρίως μετά την ανάπτυξη του Αλβανικού εθνικισμού αλλά και λόγω της συμπόρευσής τους με το ελληνικό στοιχείο, απορρίπτουν οποιαδήποτε συσχέτιση με τους Αλβανούς. Στη δεκαετία του 1990 ο Αλβανός Πρόεδρος Σαλί Μπερίσα περιέγραψε τους Αρβανίτες σαν μια αλβανική μειονότητα στην Ελλάδα, προκαλώντας την οργισμένη αντίδραση των Αρβανιτών στα ελληνικά μέσα ενημέρωσης.

Σύμφωνα με τον Αριστείδη Κόλλια, μερικοί Αρβανίτες στο βορειοδυτικό τμήμα της Ηπείρου παραδοσιακά αυτοαποκαλούνται και με την ονομασία Shqiptár (Σκιπτάρ), χωρίς να επικαλούνται αλβανική εθνική συνείδηση. Η λέξη αυτή χρησιμοποιείται επίσης σε μερικά χωριά της Θράκης, όπου οι Αρβανίτες μετανάστευσαν από τα βουνά της Πίνδου κατά τον 19ο αιώνα. Από την άλλη μεριά αυτή η λέξη είναι παντελώς άγνωστη στο κύριο σώμα των Αρβανιτών της νότιας Ελλάδας.

Have a nice day!

NG

 

[greek487]

Mr. Nassis,

You stated: "The “Arvanites,” . . .

Mr. Giannoukakis,

You need to start reasoning clearly and accurately before jumping to conclusions.

Did I not label the text I copied and pasted as such?

(From Richard Barrett's blog at http://leitourgeia.wordpress.com/201...know-that-guy/)

And you still maintain the grand labels of "medical scientist" and "expert" in byzantine music? Some accuracy please.

Thank you,
Taso

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

I know exactly what I wrote.

Evidently, Mr. Barrett's reference did not bother you in the least.

NG.

 

[greek487]

I know exactly what I wrote.

Evidently, Mr. Barrett's reference did not bother you in the least.

NG.

You have a problem with Mr. Barrett's reference? Then that's your problem, not mine. Do not attribute his statement to me.

Thank you,
Taso

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

I am not attributing it to. But you, apparently, have no issue in conveying it to this forum.

Mr. Nassis, I actually enjoy reading your Karas-influenced beliefs on music. I find them very entertaining.

But, as a Greek, I am INSULTED that you are conveying this Arvanites=Albanians propaganda to a forum that promotes an inherently Hellenic music. Mr. Barrett may not know anything about the problems and the persecution Greeks in Northern Epirus faced and continue to face and quite likely, his comment was naive.

But you, as a Greek of Chicago-with a strong presence of Arvanites and their struggle to fight such propaganda, ought to know about the Albanian issues.

Unless you are part of the problem and agree that "Arvanites, of course, are Greeks whose heritage is Albanian".

I am certain that if you post that assertion about Arvanites are Albanians in the Greek side of the forum that you will get some not too nice comments.

This propaganda is state-sponsored (has been and is continuing to be) and no different than the Skopjian propaganda about Macedonia.

At the very least, have the decency as a Greek, to remove that part of Mr. Barrett's commentary from your initial post.

I have no issue with the remainder of your post.

NG

 

[Shota]

Unless you are part of the problem and agree that "Arvanites, of course, are Greeks whose heritage is Albanian".

Barrett actually calls Arvanites Greeks. As far as "heritage" is concerned, this can be interpreted e.g. as language, folklore etc. These they didn't inherit from Homer.

The whole thread is irrelevant to the forum scope though.

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Irrelevant to you, but not to me.

Anyone who is not careful in propagating posts that carry (even unintentionally) propaganda is subject to scrutiny as to their intentions.

Ask an Arvaniti if he is an Albanian, in person, and see what happens.

Next time, pay close attention to what you propagate because it can be construed as an insult and as propaganda. I don't believe that this is Mr. Nassis' intent, but his refusal (thus far) to edit that part out is not in line with respect of history and respect of an ethnosocial group of Greeks who are to this day being persecuted in Albania for being Greek and Orthodox.

I will stop here. For now.

NG.

 

[Shota]

Irrelevant to you, but not to me.

Anyone who is not careful in propagating posts that carry (even unintentionally) propaganda is subject to scrutiny as to their intentions.

Ask an Arvaniti if he is an Albanian, in person, and see what happens.

Next time, pay close attention to what you propagate because it can be construed as an insult and as propaganda. I don't believe that this is Mr. Nassis' intent, but his refusal (thus far) to edit that part out is not in line with respect of history and respect of an ethnosocial group of Greeks who are to this day being persecuted in Albania for being Greek and Orthodox.

I will stop here. For now.

NG.

Seems to me you didn't understand what I wrote.

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Seems to me that it is you who didn't understand my sensitivity on the matter.

You want to play semantics and waste your time (and mine). I don't.

A decent person would respect the matter of ethnic sensitivities and would at the very least consider the relevance of someone's sensitivity. Apparently neither you nor Mr. Nassis do.

But, just for your educational experience, please go up to an Arvaniti and state: "I understand you are a Greek of Albanian heritage".

Videotape the outcome.... maybe it will be a learning experience for both of you.

NG

 

[Shota]

Seems to me that it is you who didn't understand my sensitivity on the matter.

You want to play semantics and waste your time (and mine). I don't.

A decent person would respect the matter of ethnic sensitivities and would at the very least consider the relevance of someone's sensitivity. Apparently neither you nor Mr. Nassis do.

But, just for your educational experience, please go up to an Arvaniti and state: "I understand you are a Greek of Albanian heritage".

Videotape the outcome.... maybe it will be a learning experience for both of you.

NG

Well, I just have to repeat that it seems you don't understand what I wrote.

P.S. Fyi I see no point in asking Arvanites how they identify themselves since they identify themselves as Greeks.

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Indeed, Arvanites identify themselves as Greeks. But they take EXTREME OFFENSE at insinuations (no matter how naive or if the comment was made out of naivete) that they are of "Albanian heritage".

It is no different than calling a refugee Greek from Asia Minor, at the time of the pogroms and the genocide of 1917-1923, a Turk.

NG

 

[RichardRBarrett]

Mr. Barrett may not know anything about the problems and the persecution Greeks in Northern Epirus faced and continue to face and quite likely, his comment was naive.

Κύριε Γιαννουκάκη,

Συγγνώμη! Δεν ήξερα τήποτα καθόλου για αυτό. Κ. Αρβανίτη ήταν ο δάσκαλος μου και εκτιμώ αυτόν πάρα πολύ. Δεν θα ήθελα να τον προσβάλω η οποιοδήποτε Έλληνα (η Ελληνίδα). Έχω ταξιδέψει στην Ελλάδα αλλά μόνο στην Αθήνα, και δεν ξέρω τήποτα για αυτά τα προβλήματα. Λυπάμαι το αδίκημα, για σας, για κύριο Αρβανίτη, η οποιοδήποτε Έλληνα που έχει αυτό το εθνότητα. Με συγχωρείτε -- είμαι μονο ένας βλάκας Αμερικανός και δεν ξέρω αυτά.

Ρίχαρδος

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Dear Mr. Barrett,

I was going to communicate with you this evening. I want to believe that your comment about Arvanites being of Albanian heritage was not intentional. Indeed, as you state, this issue is not considered newsworthy as would be the Dalai Lama or the Falun Gong in terms of a civil right issue. I do not blame you for that.

In the interests of historical accuracy that I am confident you share would you please remove that specific reference? It is a matter of high sensitivity to the Arvanites and if you travel to Greece to areas rich in Arvanites and make such a statement the result will not be pleasant

At the same time, Greece has a number of issues where civil rights are being trampled upon. You are very likely aware of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the dwindling Greek community in Istanbul (Constantinople). You may have heard about the "Macedonian" issue and the revisionism being perpetrated by the regime in Skopje. You may not have heard so much about the trampling of the civil rights of Greeks living in Albania by vestiges of the totalitarian regime and the new movements based on Islam and sheer narco-terror.

I have no problem with the Hagiopolites as a group and as performers. I may question the theoretical basis of their interpretation of Byzantine chant, but that is not the point of my concern and as you saw throughout this thread I made no issue of it.

But for the sake of historical accuracy, please consider the sensitivities of Arvanites on the matter of "Albanian heritage". I trust your good offices. This will at least enable another forum member (Mr. Nassis) to do the same in the interest of historical accuracy and ethnic sensitivities.

My sincerest regards and respect,

Nick Giannoukakis

 

[RichardRBarrett]

Well, Mr. Giannoukakis, as a general rule, I do not delete things from my blog; in a way, I see it as revisionist history. If I made a mistake, then I made a mistake, and I would be happy to add an annotation to that effect, but I'm not going to change the record of that mistake. There is one instance where I honored a request to delete something, and I did so only because I had made reference to somebody that unintentionally violated the privacy of their family.

If I may ask -- what is a way of communicating the factual information embedded in that statement that would be less inflammatory? The very first sentence of the body of the Wikipedia article about Arvanites says, "Arvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 13th and 16th century from areas in what is today southern Albania." My distillation of that into "Arvanites are Greeks of Albanian heritage" seems otherwise like a fair and accurate representation of that information, but it evidently expresses it in a way that is disrespectful. What would be a better restatement?

Ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ,

Richard

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Dear Mr. Barrett:

I do not share your sentiment of "Με συγχωρείτε -- είμαι μονο ένας βλάκας Αμερικανός και δεν ξέρω αυτά.". You have nothing to apologise for. I am convinced that your intentions were honest and genuine. You are not a "vlaka". To the contrary, I am convinced that you are a bright and very educated person.

Had you been aware of the historical and ethnosocial (not to mention the volatile political) background on the matter of Arvanites-Albanians, I am equally confident that you would have chosen a different phrase (see below).

I commend you for your honest and genuine interest in Byzantine music and your efforts, locally. I am also humbled that you are taking the time to correct a phrase that can be considered revisionist.

The problem is not one of intent but is a consequence of Americans not having access to the full spectrum of Hellenic issues. Yes, it is a minor point for an American, but for a Greek whose civil rights are being trampled and whose family was persecuted for being a Christian and a Greek it is a major part of who they are and their history and cultural identity. If you travel to the Arvanitochoria in Greece in the future, it would be useful to learn about the history of the Arvanites first-hand...

Even if you choose, as a matter of principle, not to remove your sentence, would you be kind enough, for the sake of historical and cultural accuracy to perhaps consider the following as a footnote:

"The “Arvanites,” of course, are Greeks whose heritage is Albanian***; K. Arvanitis’ involvement certainly seems fitting."

footnote***: The Arvanites are not Albanian in the strict anthropological, ethnosocial and cultural sense but are in fact Greek-speaking and Hellenic-Orthodox-accultured people who populated and expanded as a group in the geographic region that today is Albania.

Perhaps a link to this site, at the end of your footnote could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

...along with a link to this treatise:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13043330/...ive-ethnicity-The-Arvanites-of-Central-Greece

Thank you for your sensitivity to this matter. Please make every effort to read the treatise to understand the issue. For Arvanites, the revisionist elements in your phrase (no matter how unintended) are no different in consequence than a Caucasian American calling an African-American the "n" word.

NG.

 

[RichardRBarrett]

Mr. Giannoukakis,

I am more than happy to do that. If you look you will see that I have done as you asked.

Thank you for your encouraging words, and the opportunity to learn more about something about which I would otherwise know precious little!

Richard

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

Dear Richard (may I call you by your first name?)

Thank you very much for your quick and sensitive response. I ask nothing further. I value and appreciate your open mind and your genuine Christian spirit. I consider this matter closed.

I pray that the Lord guide you and your efforts in the realm of Byzantine music. If there is anything we could help with from our end (www. asbmh.pitt.edu) please let us know.

Nick

 

[RichardRBarrett]

There's no reason to call me anything other than my first name! "Mr. Barrett" never quite sounds right in my ear -- it always makes me think people are mad at me.

As I try to expand activity here in Bloomington with respect to Byzantine music in particular and Orthodox music in general, I have no doubt that there will be plenty of reasons for me to turn to ASBMH as a resource. It's very hard here, since I'm trying to build something more or less from scratch (the church, an Antiochian parish, has used Kazan since time immemorial), I can read Greek and provide a dry (diplomatic, let's say) rendering of neumes but I nonetheless don't know what I don't know, the nearest person I know of who could provide much hands-on direction is in Nashville, TN and last I heard his own status was somewhat up in the air. (Vicki Pappas lives here in Bloomington, of course, and she's a valued colleague.) I had hoped to go to the August ASBMH session but it wound up being in significant conflict with the start of IU's fall term.

In any event, please keep in touch!

Richard

 

[Shota]

Perhaps a link to this site, at the end of your footnote could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

That site actually claims that "Arvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 13th and 16th century from areas in what is today southern Albania." And later on adds "Arvanites were regarded as ethnically distinct from the Greeks in the 19th century, while their participation in the Greek War of Independence and the Greek Civil War has led to increasing assimilation."* So maybe after all a link to that site would not be so useful. But enough about that.

* Of course, as I already wrote, after all these centuries it is senseless to call Arvanites Albanians, especially because they themselves consider to be Greeks.