Slow Doxology - 4th Mode "Agia," adapted from Petros the Peloponnesian

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Good morning, all,

Attached is a recent adaptation I did of Petros' Slow Doxology in "Agia" Fourth Mode, commonly chanted on the various feast days of the Cross.

It has a some issues, I believe, but overall I tried to remain faithful to the original, while trying to avoid "παρατονισμός." Hopefully I succeeded, in general, although there are some spots I am not happy with. For these, I have provided alternate lines. For instance, in verse 14, "have mercy on me," I realized that the thesis I used accents the text "have MERcy ON me." (Not "have MERcy on ME.") So I quickly wrote a little alternate line at the top.

I'm also not very happy with the section "Holy God, Holy Might, Holy Immortal" near the end of the piece. I'm open to suggestions.

In Christ,
Gabriel

P.S. I did not write an Asmatikon, so I direct anyone who needs one (in English) to the work of Papa Ephraim, here.

P.P.S. Papa Ephraim was kind enough to point out to me the following mistakes in my composition. I paste them here (as well as some corrections) for reference, for anyone that wishes to use this setting of the doxology. Any comments I have or the appropriate adjustments based on his corrections are in bold.

1) In line 2 of verse 2, above the word "Thee" I would not have stacked the first kentemata above the oligon since they are not followed by a descending note (even though Phokeaus did this kind of thing, as I think I mentioned in my orthography rules.) The same thing happens in line 2 of verse 17.

2) In line 3 of verse 3, you forgot to put a diatonic fthora to undo the hard chromatic fthora.
So, verse 3, line 4 - there should be a diatonic fthora of Di on the last note before the diatonic martyria of Di.

3) In verse 8, the parallagi doesn't work. You probably meant to use an apostrophos instead of an yporroe for the word "O".
I was actually trying to mimic the phrase "ο καθήμενος," to a certain degree. So, the first note of verse 8 should be an oligon, not an ison.

4) In verse 9, the jump up of 2 for the word "is" should be a jump of 1.

5) In verse 17, putting a sharp on the word "Thy" would make it easier to sight-read. For the same reason I would like to see a sharp for the syllable "Im-" in verse 22.

6) In verse 20, above the syllable "Ho-", I don't think it is permissible to have an oligon with both a vareia and an antikenoma. I think the oligon would have to be a petaste. Or you could just remove the vareia.


7) In verse 21, I don't like the petaste above the word "now" because it breaks rule 2d in the orthography rules.
Therefore, that petaste should be replaced either by a simple oligon with klasma, or by a stacked oligon/kentemata/gorgon combination, followed by an apostrophos - essentially an analysis of that petaste.
 

Attachments

  • Petros Doxology - Fourth Mode Agia.pdf
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ΒΑΙΟΣ ΝΤΕΛΗΣ

Παλαιό Μέλος
GKM 2014 Eng Menaion Doxology Hymn (extended) for The Exaltation of the Precious Cross mode 04 Hagia Petros the Lambadarios
 

Attachments

  • GKM 2014 Eng Menaion 09 14 Doxology Hymn (extended) for The Exaltation of the Precious Cross m.mp3
    2.1 MB · Views: 40
  • GKM 2014 Eng Menaion 09 14 Doxology Hymn (extended) for The Exaltation of the Precious Cross m.pdf
    2.8 MB · Views: 71
  • AGNOSTOI psaltai 197x ek Radiophonou - Doxologia mode 4 Hagia Petros Peloponnesios (extended) PA.mp3
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
GKM 2014 Eng Menaion Doxology Hymn (extended) for The Exaltation of the Precious Cross mode 04 Hagia Petros the Lambadarios

Dear Dr. Michalakis,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my adaptation; I appreciate your giving it your attention and making some suggestions for alternate lines. Could you perhaps say a little about the justification for the changes you made?

For instance, on the first line of page 2 (verse #3), you changed the melody such that the word "Lord" is receiving 4 beats total - 2 beats on ga (oligon with klasma) and 2 beats on di (oligon with klasma). However, to the best of my knowledge, that second oligon with klasma should begin a new syllable, not extend the previous one. There are many instances such as this in the changes that you made. Could you perhaps say why you made these changes?

There are also some instances where it seems that changes mis-accent the text of the hymn to a certain degree. Again, in verse 3 (and also in verse 4), you have changed the music such that a great deal of emphasis is placed on "O" (of "O Lord"). Granted, in verse #4, you have written it in such a way that "Lord" and "God" also get a great deal of emphasis. However, in Petros' original doxology, the first notes of that thesis where you have placed the word "O" generally receive the most emphasis. For instance, in the original verse #4 of Petros, the accentuation and music is as follows (I apologize for the Greeklish - I'm not on my normal computer right now)

Kyrie - 100

Ky - Ke-Di
-ri - Ga-Bou
-e - Ga (2 beats)

However, you have essentially used the same thesis for a different accentuation pattern - "O Lord," which - at least to me - seems to be "01".

Perhaps you could say more about your reasons for the changes you made? I'm very interested to hear them.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

ΒΑΙΟΣ ΝΤΕΛΗΣ

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Dr. Michalakis,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my adaptation; I appreciate your giving it your attention and making some suggestions for alternate lines. Could you perhaps say a little about the justification for the changes you made?

For instance, on the first line of page 2 (verse #3), you changed the melody such that the word "Lord" is receiving 4 beats total - 2 beats on ga (oligon with klasma) and 2 beats on di (oligon with klasma). However, to the best of my knowledge, that second oligon with klasma should begin a new syllable, not extend the previous one. There are many instances such as this in the changes that you made. Could you perhaps say why you made these changes?

There are also some instances where it seems that changes mis-accent the text of the hymn to a certain degree. Again, in verse 3 (and also in verse 4), you have changed the music such that a great deal of emphasis is placed on "O" (of "O Lord"). Granted, in verse #4, you have written it in such a way that "Lord" and "God" also get a great deal of emphasis. However, in Petros' original doxology, the first notes of that thesis where you have placed the word "O" generally receive the most emphasis. For instance, in the original verse #4 of Petros, the accentuation and music is as follows (I apologize for the Greeklish - I'm not on my normal computer right now)

Kyrie - 100

Ky - Ke-Di
-ri - Ga-Bou
-e - Ga (2 beats)

However, you have essentially used the same thesis for a different accentuation pattern - "O Lord," which - at least to me - seems to be "01".

Perhaps you could say more about your reasons for the changes you made? I'm very interested to hear them.

In Christ,
Gabriel

Georgios will not respond publicly
-- because he is officially excluded from this forum
-- and especially because his response goes beyond his academic choices.


Therefore, he has asked others (including myself) to send you a document by PM, so I sent it.

You may choose to quote whatever you wish, and continue with your argumentation.

In the meanwhile, it would be nice to have a SOUND sample of your composition by either yourself or all those who give thanks for your work (but not that of GKM)....

I think it's obvious that the debate goes beyond whatever you have proposed thus far, and extends well into the area of SCHOOLS as concerns psaltiki.... and we are definitely not on the same side.


P.S.: Should you ever decide to use GKMs' coding methods, it would be nice to give appropriate credit, in contrast to others, who OVERTLY PLAGIARIZE by simply changing words.
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Georgios will not respond publicly
-- because he is officially excluded from this forum
-- and especially because his response goes beyond his academic choices.

Therefore, he has asked others (including myself) to send you a document by PM, so I sent it.

I received the document by PM, thank you. Are you (ΒΑΙΟΣ ΝΤΕΛΗΣ) a friend or student of Georgios?

You may choose to quote whatever you wish, and continue with your argumentation.

For a discussion of this type concerning composition, adaptation, and different approaches to the problems that arise in these fields, it might be a better idea to start a new topic, in which some of the specific arguments can be discussed. Perhaps a good topic title would be "The Adaptation of Greek Original Compositions Into Other Languages - Formulae vs. Metrophonia." :)

In the meanwhile, it would be nice to have a SOUND sample of your composition by either yourself or all those who give thanks for your work (but not that of GKM)....

Multiple members of this forum have sent me recordings of themselves chanting this composition. I leave it up to them to upload those recordings, if they wish.

I think it's obvious that the debate goes beyond whatever you have proposed thus far, and extends well into the area of SCHOOLS as concerns psaltiki.... and we are definitely not on the same side.

Are you referring to schools of chanting in general (Patriarchal School, Athonite School, Thessalonian School, Athenian School, Karas School, etc), or specifically schools of composition and adaptation?

P.S.: Should you ever decide to use GKMs' coding methods, it would be nice to give appropriate credit, in contrast to others, who OVERTLY PLAGIARIZE by simply changing words.

If I do end up using them, I will be sure to give appropriate credit. If there is anyone who is plagiarizing GKM's work, I'm sure that a simple message to them and request would be sufficient for them to give credit where it is due, if in fact his work is being plagiarized.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Attached is a recent adaptation I did of Petros' Slow Doxology in "Agia" Fourth Mode, commonly chanted on the various feast days of the Cross.

Congratulations on the beautiful adaptation Gabriel!

I have a few of recommendations you might want to consider ...
1) first verse, first line put a PA ison on Glo-

2) first verse, second line, put DI ison on Glo-. erase the diesi on the last apostrophos of Glo- and put a diesi on the -ry

3) first verse, fourth line, put low DI starting from and instead of the M for Mazi

4) second verse, first line, put PA ison on praise

5) third verse, first line, keep DI ison throughout the entire line. erase the other ison marks. erase diesi on the last apostrophos of Lord and put diesi on Hea-

6) third verse, third line, erase GA ison and keep DI ison. place a diesi on the apostrophos of the word only

7) third verse, fourth line, put PA ison on Je-. erase parentheses on dipli

8) fourth verse, first line, change GA ison to DI ison. erase M

9) fifth verse, first line, change GA ison to DI ison. move the diesi from the apostrophos to the first oligon of prayer

10) sixth verse, line one, move the NI ison from on- to art

11) alternate melody for verse seven ... change ison from GA to PA

12) verse twenty, line one, on the syllable -ther substitute the elaphron/apostrophos combo with an apostropho and yporroe with digorgon. should help it flow better.


Below, starting at 13:02, you might want to look at how the Greek Byzantine Choir approaches the ison. Finally, if my recommendations don't make sense on their own, please send me a note, and I'd be happy to discuss ison in general at your convenience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-DWTa--tFQ

Happy chanting!

 
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