General perspectives on Simon Karas' work and its criticism

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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#61
Dear John,

Harmonia Mundi the parent company promoted ELBYX in the 90s and, I *believe* until 2003-2004

They were HM-promoted in part because of the relationship with Marcel Peres at the time (not sure if they are still working together or not these days).

More recently, ELBYX is backed by Jade/Milan and Opus 111.

FYI, Opus 111 and Jade are divisions of, and distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

If you get in touch with HM they will answer all your questions.

NG
 
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saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
#63
Dear John,

Harmonia Mundi the parent company promoted ELBYX in the 90s and, I *believe* until 2003-2004

They were HM-promoted in part because of the relationship with Marcel Peres at the time (not sure if they are still working together or not these days).

More recently, ELBYX is backed by Jade/Milan and Opus 111.

FYI, Opus 111 and Jade are divisions of, and distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

If you get in touch with HM they will answer all your questions.

NG
I know about the Peres connection, I was just curious.

JPP
 
#65
[Moderator's note] Taso, I do not approve the attacks against you, however, there is no need for personal attacks. It is wise to know when to stop a conversation as well as when to start it.
Fair enough Dimitri. I respect your judgment and your management of this forum.

But you can also a) voice your disapproval of the personal attacks against me earlier. Because no matter how virtuous we may seek to be, the German proverb "Claw me and I'll claw thee" does apply.

And b) request that irrelevant charges of 'heresy' and 'heretic' NOT be used in this musicological forum.

by ranting on and on about his own (unproven and heretical) arguments

Since there is only ONE tradition in our Byzantine Music, all other "theories" are (...brace yourself, Mr. Nassis)... heresies.
The profanity expressed in the former, is the profanity the consensus psaltae hear and feel in the Karas heresy.
In other words, what your venerable teacher Lycourgos Angelopoulos does is analogous to what those iconoclastic european artists did.

I am not retracting my term "heretic" and any of its derivatives.

So Dimitri, what is your opinion on this issue of charging people of 'heresy' and of being 'heretics'? Would you like to be called a heretic over and over again? Because that is why I am repeating myself hoping to develop some consensus at least on this small issue.

Or else why not degrade this forum completely and talk about The Anti-Kara Acolytes, The Anti-Kara Heretics, The Anti-Kara Conspiracy, The Anti-Kara Atheists, The Anti-Kara Satanists, The Anti-Kara Disciples, The Anti-Kara Byzantine Music Destroyers.

If their characterizations and labels are acceptable, I'm sure I could come up with some similar labels for them.

Please continue to elevate the level of discourse on this forum, secure true academic discussions, and illustrate a modicum of respect for your teacher which inspired your exceptional efforts.

Using "heresy" as a term does a disservice to our religion and to our musicology.

Request that charges of "heresy" be stopped.

Thank you,
Taso
 
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#66
Dear John,

Harmonia Mundi the parent company promoted ELBYX in the 90s and, I *believe* until 2003-2004

They were HM-promoted in part because of the relationship with Marcel Peres at the time (not sure if they are still working together or not these days).

More recently, ELBYX is backed by Jade/Milan and Opus 111.

FYI, Opus 111 and Jade are divisions of, and distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

If you get in touch with HM they will answer all your questions.

NG
Thank you for the information. Obviously, I think it's great for Byzantine music to be promoted - especially when it is of high quality.

In my opinion, however, this does not constitute "PR".

PR is when a corporation or other organization has an in-house or outsourced group which manages the perceptions of the public regarding said company.

Not to split hairs, but to say that 'the EBX has highly organized PR' suggests that they have or outsourced individuals to manage the public's perceptions of the choir. This is simply not true.

Now if certain music labels advertise and seek to sell their products, that is not PR, that's their commercial business and marketing. So to say that the EBX is advertised by major corporations or music labels which try to sell their CDs, that's completely fair.

Clearly speaking, the choir does hire anyone for PR. Music labels promote the choir to sell their products.

Taso
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#67
Is there or is there not a contract between the record company and the artist?

If there is, there are conditions on PR.

Some of the PR is paid by the company.

Some of the PR is paid by the artist.

Get the contract between ELBYX and HM so we can all see the arrangements over the years, and maybe then you can post it for all of us to see. After all you DID claim that you had "first hand knowledge of ELBYX" (your comment: "the Greek Byzantine Choir does not have any "organized PR". I can say this categorically because I know from first hand knowledge." (from this post: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82253&postcount=39).

......But, we have digressed from the topic of the thread (General perspectives on Simon Karas' work and its criticism):

I answered your questions out of Christian courtesy even though they are unrelated to Karas' WORK (here are your questions: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82176&postcount=28) [and here are my responses: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82262&postcount=47, at the same time, this is something that you have not at all responsed to: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82255&postcount=41]

Now, since you APPARENTLY SOUGHT AN ACADEMIC DISCOURSE (your comment "Discussion, argument, debate, and criticism is what scholarship are all about. That should be encouraged." from this post of yours: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80679&postcount=4)

...please answer mine:

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)

This is the TWELFTH TIME I ASK YOU TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.....

You stated that you are not a musicologist or an expert (you stated " I told you that I am not a musicologist and I am not an expert" in this post: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82258&postcount=44), but if you champion the Karas methods and interpretations, and you perform hymns according to the Angleopoulos inspiration (i.e. Karas-inspired) surely you have the fundamental theoretical and practical foundation to answer the questions above?

If not, then exactly WHAT are you pushing as tradition?

Are you inventing something new?

NG
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#68
Mr. Nassis,

You state here (http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82618&postcount=65): " The Anti-Kara Acolytes, The Anti-Kara Heretics, The Anti-Kara Conspiracy, The Anti-Kara Atheists, The Anti-Kara Satanists, The Anti-Kara Disciples, The Anti-Kara Byzantine Music Destroyers."

First, you are free to label ME any way you want. Personally, I don't mind either of those labels. Go ahead and use them.

But before you use any labels, please have the courtesy to define them. I have already defined my intent when I use the term "heretic" and "heresy" and you evidently still don't understand it.

Once again, I use the term in the strict non-religious sense to describe a person and a movement whose views are not part of the mainstream and the consensus. That the term can, and has been used, and is currently being used in a non-religious context and without religious implications has already been defined in many earlier posts (do you want to be reminded?).

Now, even though I have no problem with your labels used on me, let's look at some of the implications of those labels you suggest:

1) "anti-Karas acolytes": By using the word "acolyte" you allude to a movement or a leader, but you do not offer the reader a glimpse into who you define the leader to be. Who do you define as the leader of the "anti-Karas acolytes"? The Church of Greece which has issued two edicts? The consensus of psaltae in Greece who do not follow the Karas theories? 60+ years of audio witness in which one cannot even find a hint of anything Karas-inspired?

2) "anti-Karas heretics": By using the work heretic to label those who do not follow the Karas method, you are describing the CONSENSUS and MAINSTREAM psaltae and psaltic practice world-wide. This is a non-sequitur Mr. Nassis! How is it possible, on a logical and rational basis, that the MAINSTREAM and the CONSENSUS is at the same time an outlier and outside the consensus? Did you not carefully consider this phrase on fundamental logic? Perhaps you should consult with someone expert in set theory to help you see the serious flaw in your logic here....

3) "the anti-Karas conspiracy": A conspiracy is defined as "an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others" (I assume you mean this and not a criminal conspiracy!). Well, Mr. Nassis, there are no hidden agendas among those, including the Church of Greece, who have spoken against and presented evidence against the Karas methods and interpretations. Everything has been laid out in the open in letters and edicts and publicly available. One could argue that the Karas method is a conspiracy (intent to mislead, deceive and defraud) as it presents untenable hypotheses by facts and history.

4) "anti-Karas atheists": Well, you cannot know the faith and spirit and belief of those who argue against the Karas theories Mr. Nassis. If you have evidence that one or more individuals worldwide who have spoken and presented arguments that do not support the Karas hypothesis are "atheists" (defined as not believing in the existence of a deity) then you had better present that information about who is an atheist.

5) "anti-Karas Satanists". In line with the above, can you present evidence that one or more individuals arguing against the Karas hypothesis are engaged in the systematic worship of Satan?

6) "anti-Karas disciples" (see point 1 above, since disciple can be synonymous with acolyte)

7) "anti-Kara Byzantine Music destroyers". Here, we have to find a consensus on what we mean and agree on as the meaning for "Byzantine Music". Unless we define this term, we cannot consider anything more.....

Having said this, please use any labels so long as they are logical and have a rational basis. And any label you choose to use, PLEASE DEFINE IT FIRST.

Now,

You further state: "Please continue to elevate the level of discourse on this forum, secure true academic discussions"

Indeed, in the interest of academic discussion, For the THIRTEENTH TIME, I ask you to answer these questions:

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)


NG
 
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#69
Is there or is there not a contract between the record company and the artist?
If there is, there are conditions on PR.
Some of the PR is paid by the company.
Some of the PR is paid by the artist.
Get the contract between ELBYX and HM so we can all see the arrangements over the years, and maybe then you can post it for all of us to see. After all you DID claim that you had "first hand knowledge of ELBYX" (your comment: "the Greek Byzantine Choir does not have any "organized PR". I can say this categorically because I know from first hand knowledge."
Mr. Giannoukakis,

I had no idea you were such so anti-Kara for so many years with such a deep knowledge of your heretical enemy. Your intelligence of your enemy is much more extensive than my superficial first hand knowledge.

So, I must defer to your extensive info gathering because obviously you are intimately familiar with the operations of this sinister force - the Greek Byzantine Choir.

Then you can further elaborate on Operation Vatopaidi and the "interesting rumours" you are now hearing.

Any chatter elsewhere? If you need an agent, please don't hesitate to ask. I know some of the players and I could be a useful asset to your campaign.

Put it all on the table Mr. Giannoukakis. Let's get these guys!

You have called my bluff and exposed my hidden agenda for all to see. I am an agent of Karas - a "champion of Karas" if you will. Job well done, sir!

Can I join your forces? I will seek out and destroy all Kara agents. And I promise not to be a double-agent. . . :D

Here, you outline some "detective work" for me. . .

Some detective work for you: Find out and post the number of CDs HM published for Mr. Angelopoulos as well as the amount of money (dollars and euros) spent on the promotion of his work and who was paid. Post your findings here for all to consider.
Can this be my first mission? Please choose me. Mr. Combitsis is rather busy these days.

And here you state. . .
because Karas WILL be just a dissonant note for historians to gloss over in 200 years, whereas the CONSENSUS psaltae and choirs will be remembered for their staunch resistance to heretical innovations)
But please make sure that you record all of your efforts though. Because history will want to know who this great protector of byzantine music tradition was. Who this slayer of the Kara dragons was.

Good work Mr. Giannoukakis. Your superiors will be well pleased.

Soon to be an anti-Kara agent,
Taso
p.s. Dimitri, do you see how the above quote on "heresy" directly appeals to a religious fervor and crusade-like spirit? History will remember those for their "staunch resistance to heretical innovations." Clearly, "heresy" is used to inappropriately appeal to religious conflict and zeal.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#70
To the moderators:

I have asked Mr. Nassis THIRTEEN TIMES ALREADY to answer questions in the following threads. This is the FOURTEENTH. If he is a follower of the Karas method and he has any real idea of anything the Karas method is all about then he should have no trouble answering them:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80322&postcount=3

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80683&postcount=5

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80687&postcount=7

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80182&postcount=37

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80196&postcount=1

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=81059&postcount=78

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80322&postcount=6

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80283&postcount=43

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=79964&postcount=1

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80062&postcount=37


I EXPECT the moderators to ask Mr. Nassis to answer these questions directly and without any further delay.

I have no problem continuing his game of evasion and playing with words, but it is HE WHO ASKED FOR AN ACADEMIC DIALOGUE (his comment "Discussion, argument, debate, and criticism is what scholarship are all about. That should be encouraged." from his post here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80679&postcount=4).

If you believe that his post alluding to intrigue and espionage (immediately above) is in line with academic standards and academic dialogue in any rational sense, then please open up a new thread entitled "Espionage, conspiracy and the Karas movement". I will be happy to play Mr. Nassis' game in such a thread. It will be very entertaining, I assure you.

If you believe that his intent, from the moment he ran from subtopic to subtopic of the English section of Psaltologion to engage those who offered criticisms of the Karas method and its revisionist practices, was to engage in academic dialogue, then CALL HIS BLUFF AND DEMAND THAT HE ANSWERS THE QUESTIONS in the posts listed above.

He challenged me, and I had the decency of answering his inquisition (here are his questions: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82176&postcount=28) [and here are my responses:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82262&postcount=47, at the same time, this is something that he also has not at all responded to: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82255&postcount=41).

The least YOU, the moderators can do is ask him to be as decent.

He can use any label for me his heart desires.

I can play this game with him tirelessly.

BUT I EXPECT MY QUESTIONS ANSWERED.

NG
 
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Dimitri

Δημήτρης Κουμπαρούλης, Administrator
Staff member
#71
[Moderator's note] Dear friends, today is a day of celebration and joy and I hope you enjoyed chanting for Panagia as much as I did. This thread was extracted as an off-topic discussion from another thread and even though I advised to give it up and deal with separate threads, one topic at a time, that did not happen and the thread ended up being a usual dead-end exchange of posts including personal attacks, many of them violating the forum rules and the principles of good dialogue. Evading crucial arguments in a discussion is not helping. Mixing up all sorts of irrelevant topics inside a discussion, breaks the discussion down. Personal attacks and insults from wherever they originate are unacceptable. Using pejorative language especially when knowing that it insults and puts off potential participants in the discussion is not conducive to a good discussion. Insisting and repeating arguments and demanding answers to questions (by anyone and from anyone) is not helping either and is against good dialogue etiquette. If someone is not prepared (and here Taso has explicitly stated exactly that) to answer a question they will never do, regardless of how many times one asks them. Dear friends, I gave every good chance for this dialogue to proceed and for people to have a second thought and retract comments that violate forum rules. I am closing this thread for the time being. If anyone wants to answer Mr Giannoukakis' questions they are encouraged to do so in the relevant threads were they were posed in the first place or separate specific threads can be opened with clear and succint scope. Let's not let the situation of this thread happen again. May Panagia help us all.
 
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