Children's voice not Byzantine Music?

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chretienorthodox

Guest
[Moderator's note (DK)] Moved to separate thread from another thread.

http://www.analogion.com/LeonidasKotsiris.html

Any comments/criticisms of the recordings? Anything from the way we chant to the actual production value of the recording and how to improve upon this is helpful. Any feedback welcome, even if you think we are terrible.

Thanks,

~Sam

Mr Samuel unfortunely some child voice is heard. It's not Byzantine music!
 
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herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
I beg to differ. There are plenty of children's choirs in Greece. It is Byzantine Music. It may not be good Byzantine music, but the voice does not make the form of music.
 
C

chretienorthodox

Guest
I beg to differ. There are plenty of children's choirs in Greece. It is Byzantine Music. It may not be good Byzantine music, but the voice does not make the form of music.

Mr Samuel,

Current sense (meaning) of Byzantine Music is: "Orthodox Church' music".

Its "Constitution" is Patriarchal Commission on Music (1881) handbook "Elementary Indroductory (Teaching) to (of) our Ecclesiastical Music". In this forum you can find it, in pdf at dicussions in greek. You need a good knowledge of 19th century greek to understand it. According to this "Constitution" child voice is by no means Ecclesiastical music.

Also in youtube i have heard Astoria's choir and clear two voices are heard by interval about one octave. It's european harmony (or western polyphony) strictly forbidden by Patriarchal Commission. On the other hand Moni Vatopediou choir (also is heard in youtube) sing Byzantine Music. Solo voice doesn't sing, just reads. It's a tradition in monasteries not forbitten by Patriarchal Commission.
 
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herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
Then what does one do when say in pl 4th the note is on high Ni and the ison is low Ni? wouldnt that disqualify it as Ecclesiastical or Church music? and the Hagia Sophia had a childrens choir for many of their services. The tradition of Ecclesiastical music is not so cut and dried as people like to pretend it is.
 

frephraim

Παλαιό Μέλος
According to this "Constitution" child voice is by no means Ecclesiastical music.

I am surprised to hear that they said that, especially considering that in the Patriarchate itself, children helped out as canonarchs. I'm not sure when that practice began, but it can be clearly heard in recordings of the 1950's. Maybe Dimitri can tell us if Angelos Boudouris mentions it also a few decades earlier than that.
 
C

chretienorthodox

Guest
Then what does one do when say in pl 4th the note is on high Ni and the ison is low Ni? wouldnt that disqualify it as Ecclesiastical or Church music? and the Hagia Sophia had a childrens choir for many of their services. The tradition of Ecclesiastical music is not so cut and dried as people like to pretend it is.

Drone or ison or isokrathma must be said very low so that only sacred singer can hear it.
 
C

chretienorthodox

Guest
I am surprised to hear that they said that, especially considering that in the Patriarchate itself, children helped out as canonarchs. I'm not sure when that practice began, but it can be clearly heard in recordings of the 1950's. Maybe Dimitri can tell us if Angelos Boudouris mentions it also a few decades earlier than that.

Mr frephraim,

Exceptions prove the rule.
 

Dimitri

Δημήτρης Κουμπαρούλης, Administrator
Staff member
Mr Theodosiou, please provide the exact reference and an English translation of the quote you mention. Thank you.

I am surprised to hear that they said that, especially considering that in the Patriarchate itself, children helped out as canonarchs.

Not only in the Patriarchate and not only recent from what I know. The mixing of low and high pitch (castrati) voices is mentioned from the Byzantine times. Despite official rules that 'magadisma' (singing in low and high octave simultaneously) is forbidden. I am sorry, not time to provide exact references now.

I'm not sure when that practice began, but it can be clearly heard in recordings of the 1950's. Maybe Dimitri can tell us if Angelos Boudouris mentions it also a few decades earlier than that.
He mentions it a few times. He himself started as a child canonarch in his home town (late 19th cent).

See also mention of Georgios Papadopoulos on psaltic training of children in Byzantine times here.

Η μουσική κατά τους βυζαντινούς χρόνονς απετέλει το τρίτον μέρος των εν τoις σχολείοις διδασκομένων μαθηματικών, ως αποδεικνύεται εκ των συγγραμμάτων Μιχαήλ του Ψελλού, Μανουήλ του Βρυεννίου και άλλων, ουδέποτε της Αριθμητικής και Γεωμετρίας αποχωρισθείσα εν τη διδασκαλία. Και ιδιαίτεραι δε μουσικαί σχολαί υπήρχον, εν αις oι καλλίφωνοι παίδες εδιδάσκοντο την μουσικήν.

See also this page here, a memo of the Musical Ecclesiastical Association of Constantinople to the Patriarch in 1922 asking for 7 children per church choir:

Εάν λοιπόν θέλωμεν ίνα η εκκλησιαστική ημών μουσική και σήμερον προκαλή ανάλογα εις την ψυχήν των εκκλησιαζομένων συναισθήματα, τα εκκλησιαστικά άσματα δέον να εκτελώνται υπό άριστα εκγυμνασμένων χορών, εικοσαμελών τουλάχιστον, συγκροτουμένων εκ δεκάδος εκατέρωθεν μελών, εν οις ο αρχωδός (Πρωτοψάλτης ή Λαμπαδάριος), οι τέσσερις δομέστικοι, ων οι δύο βαρύτονοι και οι δύο οξύφωνοι, και ανά επτά καλλίφωνοι παίδες δι’ εκάτερον των χορών. Προς συντήρησιν δε του τοιούτου εικοσαμελούς χορού απαιτούνται κατά μήνα τουλάχιστον επτακόσιαι λίραι Τουρκίας.
 
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C

chretienorthodox

Guest
Mr Theodosiou, please provide the exact reference and an English translation of the quote you mention. Thank you.



Not only in the Patriarchate and not only recent from what I know. The mixing of low and high pitch (castrati) voices is mentioned from the Byzantine times. Despite official rules that 'magadisma' (singing in low and high octave simultaneously) is forbidden. I am sorry, not time to provide exact references now.

He mentions it a few times. He himself started as a child canonarch in his home town (late 19th cent).

See also mention of Georgios Papadopoulos on psaltic training of children in Byzantine times here.



See also this page here, a memo of the Musical Ecclesiastical Association of Constantinople to the Patriarch in 1922 asking for 7 children per church choir:

Mr. Administrator,
Yesterday I sent you a message from mediatheque de Quimper, Bretagne, France, where log in psaltologion was impossible. Now in CCAS de Brest, Bretagne, France it's possible. I hope that you will post this message in psaltologion for I'm under moderation.
Two men's voices by any interval (usually one octave) that is european harmony strictly forbidden by Patriarchal Commission on Music (1881). It follows chidren's voice fairly higher than men's, also is forbidden.
George Papadopoulos clear is referred to secular music.
Musical Ecclesiastical Association of Constantinople was not official patriarchate's body, rather was similar to today clubs and unions of sacred singers.
In addition I provide that George Papadopoulos in his famous history of ecclesiastical music mentions no one woman or child sacred singer, wherefore it's clear Byzantine Music by sense Orthodox Church Music, is for men's voice only. I can't translate this important book into english - my english are few tips - and I do not know any english translation of it. English speaking with good knowledge of 19th century greek is the right person to do it as well translation of Patriarchal Commission on music (1881) handbook "elementary indroduction (teaching) to (of) our Ecclesiastical music".
Finally I have to say the common sense that deviations from Ecclesiastical Music always occur but never become Ecclesiastical Music. No matter if deviation is performed in patriarchal church or in a church in Greece or elsewhere.
 
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