About ZO in 1st Tone

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#1
This days I was deeper in to examing scales
I noticed that in 1 tone res. Troparion and Kirie Ekekraksa,
ZO is half down-----------
But acording to neumes it should be up
I was playing original scale 1 tone in Scala program
And compared with Fotios Ketsetiz and other famous chanters

And later I saw in a book
That all byz chanters have replaced 1st tone with western D mol

Must ask, cos I consider myself beginner
Is the note ZO hightened half in original scale 1 tone

I am trying to learn original 1 tone
With comas * 9 7 12 12 9 7 12
So I am afraid I will learn wrong

This is D mol
12 6 12 12 6 12 12

So it can be sen clearly that there is big difference
And song chanted in D mol and 1 byz tone, are so different


Is it normal some notes to chant half up or down
Although there is no sign for down or up, in neumes
I saw this in the end of Resurectional Troparion tone 5
En Ti En do kso a na sta si av tu

If it it possible, how shall I know when ?
 

evangelos

Ευάγγελος Σολδάτος
#2
This days I was deeper in to examing scales
I noticed that in 1 tone res. Troparion and Kirie Ekekraksa,
ZO is half down-----------
But acording to neumes it should be up
I was playing original scale 1 tone in Scala program
And compared with Fotios Ketsetiz and other famous chanters

And later I saw in a book
That all byz chanters have replaced 1st tone with western D mol

Must ask, cos I consider myself beginner
Is the note ZO hightened half in original scale 1 tone

I am trying to learn original 1 tone
With comas * 9 7 12 12 9 7 12
So I am afraid I will learn wrong

This is D mol
12 6 12 12 6 12 12

So it can be sen clearly that there is big difference
And song chanted in D mol and 1 byz tone, are so different


Is it normal some notes to chant half up or down
Although there is no sign for down or up, in neumes
I saw this in the end of Resurectional Troparion tone 5
En Ti En do kso a na sta si av tu

If it it possible, how shall I know when ?
Firstly the D mol (12 6 12 12 6 12 12) is not 1st mode for sure. It is simply minnor D.
Secondly the zo has not standard position. If you go from up it is normal like this
9 7 12 12 9 7 12
if you return from upper ni down then zo is lower like this
9 7 12 12 4 12 12
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#4
Thank you

I will ask again to be completely sure

Do you mean when you chant ni pa vu ga di ke zo ni
10 8 12 12 10 8 12

When you chant ni zo ke di ga vu pa ni
10 8 12 12 6 12 12

Though there are no marks for lowering, the rule is on

So what scales have this rule for up and down, when down some notes to be lowered ?
In my book for byzantine scales it is not clearly said about this


Why some are separating komas like 10 8 12 12 10 8 12
And other like 9 7 12 12 9 7 12
 
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E

emakris

Guest
#5
Thank you

I will ask again to be completely sure

Do you mean when you chant ni pa vu ga di ke zo ni
10 8 12 12 10 8 12

When you chant ni zo ke di ga vu pa ni
10 8 12 12 6 12 12

Though there are no marks for lowering, the rule is on
Yes, but these intervals correspond to the sequence Pa Vou Ga Di Ke Zo Ni Pa (starting from Pa, not from Ni. Pa-Vou is 10, Vou-Ga 8, Ga-Di 12, Di-Ke 12, Ke-Zo either 10 or 6, depending on the course of the melody, Zo-Ni either 8 or 12, Ni-Pa 12). Speaking simply: Zo is flattened when the melody goes downwards.

So what scales have this rule for up and down, when down some notes to be lowered ?
The rule for Zo applies to the natural diatonic scale (modes 1, 4, 5 and 8).

Why some are separating komas like 10 8 12 12 10 8 12
And other like 9 7 12 12 9 7 12
The numbers 9 7 12 etc. are given by Chrysanthos of Madytos in his Theoretikon (1832). The other ones correspond to the corrected version we use today, based on the work of a special Patriarchal Commitee, established in 1881.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#6
The flattening of Zo is a reaction to the imperfect perception of the human ear, even though the intervals are in fact correct.

Here is the presentation (although it's in Greek):

http://www.asbmh.pitt.edu/page9/page13/page17/page17.html

(scroll down the list of presenters on the right side of the video window and select "Dimitrios Lekkas").

I believe you will find the phenomenon and the science quite fascinating. Indeed, this could explain A LOT of things that necessitate that we use altered tonal intervals in practice...

NG
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#7
Thank you so much

I want to know this phenomenon, but I can't understand anything on Video
Is there eny explenation in english
Maybe somone on this forum can write a little more
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#8
To summarise in a simplification:

Prof. Lekkas uses reeds created with holes that produce pitches along the lines of representative Modes (Tones). He uses these reeds to demonstrate that, even though the pitches (i.e. intervals) are stable in value (irrespective of ascent or descent), in some instances, the human ear perceives differences in pitch upon descent. He uses this as one example to show that the "flattening" of Zo as one descents from upper Pa through Zo on down to lower pitches, is in fact a product of our listening perception and that the intervals of 12-8-10-12 (Pa' - Ni' -Zo' - Ke - Di) are correct on ascent and descent, even though our perception makes us believe that the interval 12-8-10 (Pa' - Ni' - Zo') should be something along 12-10-10 or even larger 12-12-10.

It's an interesting phenomenon that leads to some interesting questions on Modality.

NG
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#9
1. Is it wrong to chant always original zo, if there is no sign for lowering ?

2. About Patriarchal Commitee, established in 1881
When they were measuring komas
Did they have some famous chanters at that time
Or they had some ancient writings, numbers ...
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#10
First tone belongs to the diatonic genus. Inside the diatonic genus, the treatment of Zo depends on the progression of the melody.

As a general guide:

1. When the melody moves towards Zo from lower notes, but does not surpass Zo, Zo is flattened.

2. When the melody moves towards Zo with the intent and the actual surpassing towards higher notes, Zo remains in its "natural" pitch.

3. When the melody moves towards Zo from notes higher then it, but does not intend to "cross" it, or move further down from Zo, Zo remains in its natural pitch.

4. When the melody moves towards Zo from notes higher then it, with the intent to cross it and move lower, Zo is flattened.

The intricacy comes when the melody remains between Ke-Ni.

These practices hold for all Modes (Tones) that belong to the diatonic genus.

NG
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
#11
First tone belongs to the diatonic genus. Inside the diatonic genus, the treatment of Zo depends on the progression of the melody.

As a general guide:

1. When the melody moves towards Zo from lower notes, but does not surpass Zo, Zo is flattened.

2. When the melody moves towards Zo with the intent and the actual surpassing towards higher notes, Zo remains in its "natural" pitch.

3. When the melody moves towards Zo from notes higher then it, but does not intend to "cross" it, or move further down from Zo, Zo remains in its natural pitch.

4. When the melody moves towards Zo from notes higher then it, with the intent to cross it and move lower, Zo is flattened.

The intricacy comes when the melody remains between Ke-Ni.

These practices hold for all Modes (Tones) that belong to the diatonic genus.

NG
Its an intricacy that seems to find its way into a lot of early and folk music.

JPP
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#12
Indeed it is, John.

Consider that early folk music, using strings and reeds as instruments, even though it did not use equal temperaments, it followed almost equidistant pitch temperaments. The imperfection of human aural perception especially on the smaller intervals, created the impression that there were actual differences in pitch intervals between ascent and descent through those particular pitches.

Professor Lekkas' presentation is remarkable, as it demonstrates this in practice using reeds of fixed pitches and how the human ear perceives the differences noted above, even though the physical distances between the holes are fixed.

NG
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#13
Someone can tell me about
About Patriarchal Commitee, established in 1881

How they were measuring intervals
What facts did they have to get real masures ?
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#14
Dear Aprilka,

Your question would take quite a few pages to answer comprehensively and completely. To summarise:

The Committee was tasked with the objective of confirming the tonal intervals of Byzantine Chant given that exo-ecclesiastic influences were deemed to have "perverted" the tonal intervals and thus, a guidance was to be established on the matter. Furthermore, there were some questions about Chrysanthos' consideration of tonal intervals that lingered among the more learned of the psaltae of the time. The members of the committee were Germanos Aphthonides, The Archon Protopsaltis of the Great Church of Christ, Giorgios Violakis, the psaltae Ephstratios Papadopoulos, Ioasaph the Monk, Panagiotis Kiltzanides, Giorgios Progakis and the mathematician Andreas Spatharis.

Their approach was based on playing ecclesiastic melodies on stringed instruments and asking (according to the proceedings of the committee) the consensus of psaltae of Constantinople to confirm or refute the tonal intervals used in playing the melodies. Taking into account the consensus, they used a monochord of a meter's length with movable frets to establish the physical distances that defined each of the intervals and then, they established the fraction representative of the tonal interval. Once they identified all the intervals, they transformed the fractions into integers on a 36 and then a 72 step equal-tempered scale. The values of (for example) 12-10-8 that define the intervals of the diatonic fourth (tetrachord) were derived in this manner.

The problem with this approach was the subjectivity of the psaltae listening to the melodies in the first place, as well as psychoacoustics that affect perception of frequency.

Modern day computer methods (see appended work- thesis of Dr. Kyriakos Tsiappoutas) indicate the Chrysanthos' proposals are more in line with what a traditional chantor performs and offer explanations that could underlie the problems of the 1881 Committee conclusions.

In defense of the Committee, the Proceedings are very clear that the tonal intervals proposed represent approximations of the "received tradition" and only by tradition (i.e. learning from a credible teacher) can the intervals be faithfully reproduced.

NG
 

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aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#15
Thank you so much

This year I am so much atracted by this intervals
At first I saw them in a book as charts, and I wanted to hear them
Now I was happy to hear them in computer instruments

There is little difference between old and new western intervals
But this difference is amazing

Thank you again
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#16
Again

Can I ask about anastasimon apolitikion Pl to 1
Ton sinanarxon logon
Αναστασιματάριον Πέτρου του Πελοποννησίου

The final notes have GA hightened
But it does not have sign for up

En ti en do xo a na sta si av tu
 
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saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
#18
Indeed it is, John.

Consider that early folk music, using strings and reeds as instruments, even though it did not use equal temperaments, it followed almost equidistant pitch temperaments. The imperfection of human aural perception especially on the smaller intervals, created the impression that there were actual differences in pitch intervals between ascent and descent through those particular pitches.

Professor Lekkas' presentation is remarkable, as it demonstrates this in practice using reeds of fixed pitches and how the human ear perceives the differences noted above, even though the physical distances between the holes are fixed.

NG
I've played the Irish Uilleann pipes for years, which are, interestingly enough, tuned to a just major scale on D which is almost identical to our diatonic scale. My instrument maker who resides in Vancouver, WA deliberately undercuts the bore around the 3rd and 7th from the tonic so that it comes out ever so slightly flat of western intervals, so that the pitch rings out against the drones (Irish ison?), otherwise it sounds fairly "dry" (a concept also used in Barbershop harmony to achieve the "ringing" quality). It might have been interesting had the Music Commission had access to a set of Irish pipes.

JPP
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
#19
About melodic attraction
Is it the same as the flattening of zo in diationic scales ?

Is there something like this in other scales like enharmonic, chromatic ..

I want to know more about this
cos. I am afraid of the notes when there is now sign for lowering or up, half tone

Maybe some link so I can read more

Thank you
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
#20
Attractions are learned from practice and from listening to the old-time psaltae. Even if it were possible to create a "master table" of attractions, according to tradition (and there are a number of such books/essays on the matter in Greek), the trap that they create is serious in that one can easily "over-attract" when there is absolutely no historical basis for some attractions.

I would first learn how to chant the melodies and the formulae of each of the eight Modes (Tones) and then, as you become comfortable in this, you will be in a better position to understand attractions.

As for the Zo issue, it is not related to attractions but it is an imposed vocal practice consequent to the human ear's "imperfection" in translating the frequencies of Zo-related melodic progressions (diatonic) into pitches.

NG
 
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