About Ftoras in Ps 33 Simonopetra

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
I need little explenation on this part of Ps 33 - Simonopetra

Why diatonik ftora for PA is written on KE (en Gis)

And I have feeling that DIES written on ZO (te trim)
That it should also be written on next Zo notes comming in the row
At least on some of them
Also in the next verses (ke ek pa son)


On this thread I would also ask about 4th resurectional apolitikon
Αναστασιματάριον Πέτρου του Πελοποννησίου
It starts with diatonik martiria with soft chromatic ftora above
Writen together like that, is it a picture for 4th Irmological Tone in Soft Chrom Scale ?
Or it means something else ?

Thank you
 

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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Aprilka,

The composer, by placing the diatonic phthora of Pa on Ke asks the performer to replace the tetrachord Ke-Zo-Ni'-Pa' with the tetrachord of Pa-Vou-Ga-Di.

If you remember the "anomaly" that is created by the melodic progressions around Zo in the diatonic genus, by placing the phthora of Pa on Ke, the composer makes it clear that he wants Ke-Zo- to sound like Pa-Vou (i.e. making it clear that for this sequence Zo is ALWAYS slightly raised). There really is no need for the Diesi (sharp) if one knows how the genus behaves, but the composer decided to "remind" the performer. In principle, he could have placed the Diesi under the notes you describe, but it would look very messy. Further, especially to untrained psaltae, the over-analysis with sharps and flats, will create more questions than answers. E.g. by how much should one raise the interval?

That is why it is critical to sit alongside a reputable and trained chantor to learn these things without an overanalysed text.

Re. your second question, traditionally, all Apolytikia and Kathismata that belong to Fourth Tone are chanted as if they belong to Second Tone (following the soft chromatic genus). That is why the phthora of soft chromatic Di (or Vou, historically) is placed on the martyria. The exceptions are the Kathismata that follow the template (prologos) "Kateplagi Iosiph". It is worth noting that, on the few instances in the year when there are APOLYTIKIA (not Kathismata) that are preceded by the phrase "Kateplagi Iosiph", they have their own melody and follow the soft chromatic genus.

NG.
 
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aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
Is this matter, changing pa vu ga di, called parakordia, transposition ?

I was thinking about this
But between pa and vu there is big step in diatonic scale
And when I listen simonopetra it sounds like half step (Gis Ki ri os)
That is why I posted this question
Can you help me, am I listening this correctly, where I am wrong ?

As for the diesis, if ZO is raised with replacing of PA VU GA DI
Why the need for first sharp on ZO ?

Thank you so much
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Aprilka:

You ask:
Is this matter, changing pa vu ga di, called parakordia, transposition ?

Not quite. PARACHORDI has a specific meaning (see later). When one places a phthora that represents the root of a tetrachord on the root of an existing tetrachord without altering the genus (like the phthora of Pa on Ke), one is essentially replacing an entire tetrachord with another, en bloc.

One can also replace a tetrachord of one genus with an entire tetrachord of another genus (for example, the tetrachord of the hard chromatic Pa-Vou-Ga-Di) in place of the diatonic Ke-Zo'-Ni'-Pa'). This is referred to as the METAVOLI TOU GENOUS (change of the genus). Again, an entire tetrachord is replaced by another en bloc. The phthora of the root of the chromatic tetrachord is placed on the root of the diatonic tetrachord (e.g. hard chromatic of Pa on the note Ke in a diatonic melody).

PARACHORDI is completely different in that a sequence of four intervals is replaced en bloc by a defined tetrachord of one of the genera. For example, if one were to place the phthora of hard chromatic Pa on Di of a diatonic melody, this is called the CREATION of a Parachordi. One is replacing the sequence Di-Ke-Zo'-Ni' of the diatonic genus with the tetrachord of hard chromatic Pa-Vou-Ga-Di. Or, another more "severe" example of replacing diatonic Ga-Di-Ke-Zo' with the tetrachord (with root Pa) of the hard chromatic genus.

You comment:
But between pa and vu there is big step in diatonic scale
And when I listen simonopetra it sounds like half step (Gis Ki ri os)


That is because of the "anomaly" created by melodies that revolve around Zo'. The interval is large, but acoustically, the pitches Ke-Zo sound closer. It's part of psychoacoustics. Again, you cannot use theory to reproduce what you hear or to base learning something. Theory without understanding and having received the oral tradition is useless (and dengerous and misleading).

You ask:
As for the diesis, if ZO is raised with replacing of PA VU GA DI
Why the need for first sharp on ZO ?


As I noted in my earlier response- The composers want to remind the chantor about the minutiae that the "anomaly" of Zo creates and that in practice, the performer needs to slightly raise Zo in a melody that revolves between Ke-Zo'-Ni'.

I hope this helps, but please try to find some help alongside a good chantor. I don't know where you are located in the world, but if you are close to Europe, North America or Australia there are a number of excellent people willing to help you without any financial burden imposed on you.

NG
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
I live in Skopje
Last years, after many years of serbian chant influence
We came to have about two good teachers
Right now I am not able to contact them
Hope in near future to have real teacher
Now I am using books and internet only

My byz chant book has nice part about transposition
Can someone give mi a link, if there is such
To read more on this matter
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Aprilka,

I will send some information for you re. good psaltae and teachers in Northern Greece (Veria, Florina, Edessa, Kozani) by PM.

As for the interchanges of tetrachords, I will see if I have some relevant and instructive material that is more than an overview in English.....

NG
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
Any deeper material in byz chant would be nice, in english
I have two books, in my language
But now I saw, how deep and awesome is this knowledge
I think I will need more books, love and energy to go deeper
And one day a good teacher
 

aprilka

Παλαιό Μέλος
In the same chant, later at last verses
There is few times number 4 written above oligon
And number 3 above petasti

What is the meaning of numbers ?
 

Π. Δαβίδ

Γενικός συντονιστής
In the same chant, later at last verses
There is few times number 4 written above oligon
And number 3 above petasti

What is the meaning of numbers ?

4 means a tetrasimos chronos (4/4). 3 means a trisimos chronos (3/4). In other cases disimos chronos is counted (2/4).
 
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