On the φθόγγος of Ἦχος Πρῶτος and the Ancient Dorian

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Κωσταντής1

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Is there any ancient text (ancient= let us say, conventionaly, older than the reign of Theodosius I the Great) giving the exact intervals of the Dorian mode? By the way, I remind 2 things. 1st) in historiography there is not "right" and "wrong". The latin and western intervals for the greek modes are perhaps "wrong" but there are many works written on those modes considered masterpieces. The same "wrong" assigmation could also have happened in Greece proper or Byzantium. In historiography we rely on the OLDER source and not on the "right" one 2) if the "original" Dorian mode was a pentatonic one, as Baud-Bovy suggests, this is not the full solution to the problem. There are many pentatonic scales, one of them being the "ptolemaic" pentatonic, i.e. the one biginning with 1 - 10/9 (+ 10/8=5/4, 10/7. 10/6=5/3, 10/5=2(octava). The question is if the Dorian mode is precisely the "pythagorean" or "chinese" pentatonic, the one we all know, id est tonic - 9/8 - 4/3 - 3/2 - 27/16). Except the Locrian, all greek modes have names from tribes in Asia Minor - including the Dorians. So one supposes - Ravi Shankar calls it "chinese", Grieg found it in Scandinavia, Bartók in Hungary, Baud-Bovy - in Epirus - they choose different, conventional names, referring to the same thing - and somebody called it Dorian there, in ancient times, as we would have called it Epirotic today (as in Epirus we all know they use pentatonic scales in their popular music). Is the Dorian mode this "chinese" pentatonic or its duplication? And if not, what is it, and which is the oldest source stating it it clearly? PS It cannot be Cleonides, since Cleonides refers himself to Aristoxenus, if I am not mistaken - perhaps I did no read it well enough - and Cleonides does no seem to give exact intervals, if I am not mistaken twice). Poor Chrysanthos does!
 
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The hepate mi to be the pa, the one who first mentioned this it was me, please write down your sourses
Νέο Εικόνα Bitmap.jpg Νέο Εικόνα Bitmap (2).jpg

This is my source and it's out since 1940!!!
What really matters is not the note that corresponds to Pa (whether it's Mi, Re, or whatever), but the fact that hepate meson is our Pa.
The Teleion Ametabolon system is modulative by nature, so there hardly exists a "proper" note out of the 7 to correspond to hepate meson beyond any reasonable doubt.
 
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Κ

Κωσταντής1

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Ok. If Economu's sources and reading of them (1940) are right then the first echos of the Byzantines begins with pA (as expected). But is this echos where pA= hypate meson (hypate=the lowest sound, the highest string on a lyre held with the bass strings up, see baud-bovy above) the beginning of the dorian mode?

PS I say NO, it is the beginning of the phrygian mode. There are two different systems, 1) a "ptolemaic", "eastern" one, where dorian = 5-note scale, phrygian= 6-note, lydian=7-note etc. This system corresponds to the pA string on Chrysanthos's tambur, and

2) a "true dorian", "mainland", "pythagorean" one corresponging to the Ga string (Chrysanthos's tambur is tuned Pa-Ga-Di). Medieval (and ancient, often, as well) logic is juxtapositive, additive - two diffent systems (and sets of frets) can coexist.

So pA is 1) mi in the sense that both are the first note of the phrygian mode and 2) pA is la (Chrysanthos's option) because both are the first note at the end of the "chinese" pentatonic (do re (pythagorean)mi - sol-la, Ga Di kE - nH-pA).
 
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Ok. If Economu's sources and reading of them (1940) are right then the first echos of the Byzantines begins with pA (as expected). But is this echos where pA= hypate meson (hypate=the lowest sound, the highest string on a lyre held with the bass strings up, see baud-bovy above) the beginning of the dorian mode?
I would say no, if I insisted without proof that the ancient dorian mode is very simply the black notes on the piano beginning with do # and that it begins with the proslamvanomenos hεαγιε. The chrysanthine bou, 12/11 after pa, would be of the 4th plagal and not of the 1st echos. As it is, it is desequilibrating. Bou fills the gap of 32/27, a gap that must be filled in order to make the pentachord into an hexachord or heptachord. Proof? None, but it... sounds logical. Ps. Perhaps the ametavolon is highly... modulative because they used evenly tuned, ptolemaic scales as a basis, unlike us, and they detuned some strings according to each mode including the dorian one. That is why they do not give intervals. They are considered known. You can see the same evolution in India for example.

I do think that somewhere in prehistory, the Dorian would have come from a pentatonic or tetratonic scale.
The pentatonic and tetratonic scales are by far the most common scales across the world, Native American tribes have them, so do those in Sub-Saharan Africa, so do the Aborigenes in Australia, so do the Chinese and Japanese, and so do rural communities across Europe (at least in the older times).

Still, that is very far in the past, already during Early Antiquity, we find Minoan depictions of lyres that have 7 or more strings, suggesting that they likely switched to heptaphony early on in Greek history.
As for the pentatonic scales we find across the Balkans in Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian music from the countryside, I believe that these pentatonic scales appeared on their own, without the need for a continuity going back thousands of years ago. In fact, pentatonic lyres are the easiest to build, you can easily build instruments on this ratio model for the length of strings: 10:9:8:7:6:5, and later readjust the tension if you want alternate tunings.
 
The correct πρώτος ήχος is the ancient Dorian with the semitone as first interval.
The 19th century theory is wrong.
Here I explain the correct mapping of now to ancient chords. Seee the diagrams

Just finished reading your article.
Very interesting information you shared, though you should later post an updated version, as your article needs more academic rigor, mainly you need a more broad bibliography, with proper footnotes after each citation, and a bibliography at the end citing every source you consulted, including the ones you didn't cite (for the style, you could choose either Chicago or APA).
I remember seeing on the Psaltologion website a screenshot of your debate with Western scholars about Ancient Greek Music from some years ago, I am definitely certain that they ignored your arguments (even though you had very good arguments and their theories are flawed in many places), precisely because of the form in which you wrote.

Let's see what I understood from your article.
- You seem to start you argumentation from the syntonic diatonic of Aristoxenos, that is 6-12-12:
Syntonic 6-12-12.png
- Then expand saying that the soft diatonic would be the result of a softening of the Lichanos, giving the scale 6-9-15:
Soft 6-9-15.png

Here, I do see that you are taking Aristoxenos' intervals for granted. Still, there is the problem that these were exclusively impressions of Aristoxenos on how the tunings work, and don't necessarily reflect the reality of the actual tunings.
This is because, in order to give precise sizes for the intervals, you need to know logarithmic calculations, which Aristoxenos definitely didn't know.
Then, if I remember well, Aristoxenos said that the ear of the singer is enough to tune the instrument, and you don't need arithmetic calculations for the ratios between the frequencies, like the Pythagoreans did (CITATION NEEDED). As a result, there would be countless varieties in tuning, as each musician would tune his instruments according to his ear, and not based on precise ratios.

As a result, I would first and foremost rely on mathematical ratios between the intervals than what the ancients write about the size of those intervals.
For example, Ptolemy in his first book of Harmonics says that the soft diatonic scale is 12-18-30, that is the same as 6-9-15 of Aristoxenos, but, when you actually see the ratios proposed in his book, you see that they are 21/20, 10/9, 8/7:
Soft Diatonic.png
Which is EXTREMELY different in tuning, by all standards, because he is off tune by 2 moria for the ratio between the Parhypate and the Lichanos.
In fact, 10,94 is closer to 12 than it is to 9, meaning that all the sizes of intervals suggested by the ancients are unreliable for tuning purposes.

For this reason, when it comes to the actual tuning, I would mainly rely on Ptolemy and Al-Farabi and Chrysanthos' ratios rather than interval sizes.

Now, if when we go to our scale here, what would we get if we try to harmonize our soft chromatic scale from Βου to Κε, so that it would be a perfect fourth (4/3)?
cutting soft diatonic.png
The end result would be the following:
Soft diatonic ke yphesis.png
Then, if you want the Γα-Δι interval to turn into a whole tone, by lowering the Δι:
Diphonia Soft Diatonic.png
Does this look to you like the diphonia of Ἦχος Δεύτερος or Ἦχος Πλάγιος τοῦ Δευτέρου? To me, it looks more like a tone-tone-semitone Major Scale tetrachord. It seems very clear to me that our Byzantine scales cannot come from the Soft Diatonic of the Ancients.

Let's go forward, to see what else we can find.
For Ἦχος Βαρύς, we get the same result as for the expected diphonia of Ἦχος Δεύτερος and Ἦχος Πλάγιος τοῦ Δευτέρου:
Barys soft diatonic.png
This does indeed look like Ἦχος Βαρύς, just note the one you expected, you instead get the one with a whole tone between Ζω and Νη, the one called Ἦχος Βαρύς Ἐνἁρμόνιος.

For Ἦχος πλάγιος τοῦ Τετάρτου, you get the Western Major Scale:
Major Scale.png

It seems pretty clear that if we want to establish the continuity between the Music of the Ancients and the music of our Church, that we should rather pursue another path, that of the equable diatonic of Ptolemy, that would evolve into Al-Farabi's scale (who likely took this scale from the Byzantines) of 9/8, 12/11, 88/81 (same scale that was used by Chrysanthos).

It gives off more consistent results, for the derivation of our scales.
By adjusting the Βου-Κε interval to a perfect fourth (4/3) through the lowering of the Κε, we actually get a real diphonia:
Real Diphonia.png
And what's even better, you don't need to do the extra step you did, that is lowering the Δι.
Naturally, Ἦχος Βαρύς Διατονικός uses the exact same tetrachord.
All modes can be explained by being derivations of the scale of Al-Farabi, through adjustments for the perfect fourth and perfect fifth upwards from the base.

But I do indeed agree that originally the Πα-Βου interval was smaller than the Βου-Γα, but by how much, we see that it can vary a lot, up to the point that they are almost equal in some tunings, such as Ptolemy's equable diatonic 12:11:10.
I also agree with you in that the Πα in our diatonic scale most likely represents the Hypate Meson of the Ancients.
 

evangelos

Ευάγγελος Σολδάτος
We must understund that other thing is the scale and other the melos (μέλος=melody).
In melos while we chant or sing many modifications are happening : 1)by gelos (gender) 2) by system 3)by tone.
So for example vou (βου) is naturaly low but when you up somthingelse is happening. What happens is modification by system-pentachord system, we call it trochos (τροχός): vou becames ke, ga becames zo, di becames ni and ke becames pa. This is called paralage: second becames first, third becames second, forth becames third etc..
This modification confused Al Farabi and after him many as Chrysanthos got confused too. The scales they suggest are the tones in motion, not stable!
So, we have to seperate the neutral positions of the tetrachords and by system modifications, in order to understund how ancient harmonics work and the whole logic of ancient parallage (=camouflage=one echos is mimicking other )
 
Κ

Κωσταντής1

Guest
Let us take not a pentachord, but a simple tetrachord ATone-B Tone-C HalfTone D. Let us precise it for example let us take si bémol - do-re-mi bémol. If you like, we can invert it - Halftone-Tone-Tone. What matters, though, is the repetion of the same interval, T-T, somehing we do NOT have anywhere in the ptolemaic "homalon pentatonon" 1- 10/9-10/8-10/7-10/6. I even seriously doubt if the Lacedaemonians in Sparta proper, or in Crete, the "pure Dorians", would ever accept this repetitive succession T-T as a melody or as a melodic diatonic scale- or even as a melodic interval!

The ancient (and byzantine) concept of melodic succession is rather Heracleitian, i.e. there must be constant flow= alteration of intervals , in order to maintain the rhythm. But - that is perhaps the main point - the Dorians were also famous for their choral singing, i.e. group singing (as also the Aeolians for monody and the Ionians for their recitativo). They could accept it perhaps as a compositional frame, as a set of divisions for organising the structure of the choral odes - for what in the west has been named , sice the Renaissance, I suppose, harmony.

A scale like 1 * 9/8 *9/8 *256/243 (*9/8) has inside it the basic divisions - "pure" second, pure fourth - (pure fifth) and also makes sole use, of all the harmoncs given by the series of prime numbers 1,2.3.5.7.9.11,13.... only the harmonics /2 and /3. This simplicity and "practicability" is most probably at the root of its success. But NOT for the melody!
 
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Κωσταντής1

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...if you try to find the Tone=9/8 on a "ptolemaic" flute, i.e. a flute with equally-distanced holes, or its equivalent on a tuning of a lyre, of a phorminx, of a harp, then you find it only between the 1st and the 2nd hole (the third!) on a 8-hole flute, i.e. a homalon enneatonon. This one goes exactly like this - 1 (the tonic)- 18/17- 18/16=9/8=T - 6/5 - 9/7 - 18/13 - 9/6 - 18/11 - 9/5 (...2).

Now this "homalon enneatonon" begins at Di, and so the westerners would be wrong only by a half-tone ιn beginning their Dorian mode at D (re). Why so? Because the "zygon=even heptatonon" I suspect as a basis of the echoi is pa =la= 1 - * 4/3=re=di - * 6/5= zo (not ke!) - *8/7 = ni * 10/9 =Pa (up to here, dorian) - *12/11=Bu (exactly as Chrysanthos states), Phrygian) *14/13=Ga (lydian) * 16/15=Di (mixolydian). Now the second Pa differs from he 1st by 64/63, this is named Archytas's comma, and Chrysanthos's or rather... pre-Chrysanhos's main "treason" is that he loops it and rebigins this diatonon back at pa=1 instead of Pa=2 * 64/63*pa.

So, in western terms, Tone=9/8= re#-fa. Now, you can start "playing ball" between the "pythagorean intervals" 1- *9/8 - *32/27- *9/8-*9/8 or "chinese pentatonic" and the "ptolemaic intersystem" of whole notes,

this ball being the common interval T=9/8 at re#-fa. Chrysanthos lowers it and makes it Di-Ke. Perhaps this could be a way of organizing things...PS One could search for a certain Giovanikas's way of combining eastern modes with the european harmony in recent times, and the Palaeolithic Continuity Paradigm as a cultural theory explaining why the differencies and mixtures between east and west could very easily have appeared in Greece and Asia Minor since very ancient times.
 
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Κ

Κωσταντής1

Guest
Ps. A correction with my apologies. 9/8 is also found in a 5 or 6 or 7 or other equally distanced hole flute, but is "natural" on an 8-hole flute on the second hole marking Ke from Di as the tonic in the sense it begins from the start. The dorian mode would be on a four hole flute, but even if my calculations are wrong what I would like to push forward is the idea that at some point byzantine notation would have a concrete instrumental basis. Thank you.
 
We must understund that other thing is the scale and other the melos (μέλος=melody).
In melos while we chant or sing many modifications are happening : 1)by gelos (gender) 2) by system 3)by tone.
So for example vou (βου) is naturaly low but when you up somthingelse is happening. What happens is modification by system-pentachord system, we call it trochos (τροχός): vou becames ke, ga becames zo, di becames ni and ke becames pa. This is called paralage: second becames first, third becames second, forth becames third etc..
This modification confused Al Farabi and after him many as Chrysanthos got confused too. The scales they suggest are the tones in motion, not stable!
So, we have to seperate the neutral positions of the tetrachords and by system modifications, in order to understund how ancient harmonics work and the whole logic of ancient parallage (=camouflage=one echos is mimicking other )

I just found the tunings of the Ancient Greek modes from Ptolemy's Harmonics, Book II (took the text from a Greek version I found on Psaltologion that unfortunately lacks the original tables, but the original scales were copied in Jon Solomon's Translation of Book II, pp. 105-112):

1. Tonic Diatonic + Hard (syntonic) Chromatic (τὰ μὲν πρῶτα καθ᾽ ἕκαστον τόνον ποιεῖ τὸ μῖγμα τοῦ συντόνου χρώματος καὶ τοῦ τονιαίου διατόνου):
View attachment 114543
2. Tonic Diatonic + Soft Diatonic (τὰ δὲ δεύτερα τὸ μῖγμα τοῦ μαλακοῦ διατόνου καὶ τοῦ τονιαίου διατόνου):
View attachment 114544
3. Tonic Diatonic + Tonic Diatonic (τὰ δὲ τρίτα καθ᾽ αὑτὸ καὶ ἄκρατον τὸ τονιαῖον διάτονον):
View attachment 114545
4. Syntonic (Ditonic) Diatonic + Tonic Diatonic (τὰ δὲ τέταρτα τὸ μῖγμα τοῦ τονιαίου διατόνου καὶ τοῦ διτονιαίου):
View attachment 114546
5. Hard Diatonic + Tonic Diatonic (τὰ δὲ πέμπτα τοῦ τονιαίου διατόνου καὶ τοῦ συντόνου διατόνου):
View attachment 114547

It does indeed seem that the scales do have no harmonization of the modes, but we are in a Σύστημα Αμετάβολον, where the strings seem to have been fixed on the lyre.

For example:
- if we look at the first scale, for the Hypolydian Ὑπάτη Μέσων - Μέση (Βου-Κε), the Μέση of the Hypolydian (Κε), should be harmonized by being lowered to 22/21 (in 72-EDO the interval 4,832222102 that you can see on the table above), then we would get something similar the Jins Hijaz, or our Πλάγιος τοῦ Δευτέρου, but in a 'softer' (according to Modern definition) Hard Chromatic (if I remember well, you yourself showed a video to Western scholars in your debate that used this scale, where you presented songs you said were in the Lydian mode; still, I do think they could have been Hypolydian too):
View attachment 114548
- on the other hand, if we have the Lydian from Ὑπάτη Μέσων - Μέση (Ζω-Βου), we get the so-called Jins 'Ajam from 'Ajam Ushayran, or Ἦχος Βαρύς Ἐνἁρμόνιος in our Byzantine Music (the Πα-Βου, to harmonize for a perfect fourth, will have to be reduced from 4,832222102 to 3,777654232):
View attachment 114549

Very interesting that the Hypo-Lydian and Lydian would be so different. But in fact, if we harmonize the Diatessaron of all the scales of Ptolemy, we get the following shades of the Lydian:
1. Lydian Enharmonic:
View attachment 114550
2. Lydian Soft Chromatic:

View attachment 114551
3. Lydian Hard Chromatic:
View attachment 114552
4. Lydian Soft Diatonic:

View attachment 114553
5. Lydian Hard Diatonic:
View attachment 114554
6. Lydian Equable:
View attachment 114555
7. Lydian Tonic:
View attachment 114556
8. Lydian Ditonic:
View attachment 114557


So, it seems that the Hypo-Lydian of the first scale of Ptolemy, is in fact the Hard Chromatic shade of the Lydian.
Even though the Lydian can use the Hard Chromatic too, the scales that Ptolemy showed us would rather indicate that the Hard Chromatic was used more by the Hypolydian, than by the Lydian, who rather used Diatonic shades.

So, from what I can see about the actual practice of Ancient Greek Music, everything seems to have been centered around the Dorian, as the scales of Ptolemy for are fit first and foremost for the Dorian mode, and if one wants to modulate into other modes, this will result in the destruction (φθορά) of the scale system, and strings will be retuned all over the place.

Changing from mode to mode would be μεταβολή κατὰ τόνον. In this case, those changes are made in order to build perfect fourths and perfect fifths, that is stable tetrachords, as the Unmovable system was made for the Dorian.
Changing from genus to genus would be μεταβολή κατὰ γένος. Here, the tetrachord boundaries remain unchanged, but it is the notes inside the tetrachords, that is the Λίχανος and Παρυπάτη that move, and the Λίχανος is the one that moves the most (for the Παρυπάτη, it seems that in the older times, it was in fact fixed, and not movable, as seen from Archytas's fixed ratio between Παρυπάτη and Ὑπάτη, that is 28/27, but later Παρυπάτη moves in order to make sure that the lower interval is smaller than the second all the time, a rule clearly mentioned by both Aristoxenus and Ptolemy).

I think if you ever want to post a better version of your article, you could instead start from Ptolemy's shades. The amount of necessary late changes is much lower.
So we would have, by direct comparison:
Echos Protos = Dorian (equable diatonic shade)
Echos Deuteros = Lydian (hard chromatic shade, or in the old times, probably the soft diatonic and equable diatonic shades too)
Echos Tritos = called Phrygian, but in fact, Lydian (either hard diatonic or ditonic diatonic shades)
Echos Tetartos = Mixolydian (equable diatonic shade, but the whole tone is inserted within the tetrachord, and the Lichanos is lowered as a result to Al-Farabi's scale)
Echos Plagios tou Protou = Hypodorian (equable diatonic or tonic diatonic shade), Phrygian (tonic diatonic shade, similar to Nahawand, when Vou goes up towards Ga)
Echos Plagios tou Deuterou = Hypolydian (hard chromatic shade, and possibly also soft diatonic and equable diatonic shades)
Echos Barys = Lydian by excellence, in all shades
Echos Plagios tou Tetartou = Hypomixolydian (sometimes takes on Lydian Tonic Diatonic and Soft Diatonic shades too)
 
Κ

Κωσταντής1

Guest
1. The tables are not showing - at least on my computer. Could this be fixed?
2. Could the " metabole kata tonon" be described as the changes in pitch made on a given scale if we take a step other than the first one as the beginning of a new one? ( for example if the dorian begins from nH we start this time another one beginning from pA but we lower down strings Bou and Zo keeping the other 5 strings as they are, on a 7-string lyre)
3. If 2=yes, then what is the "metabole kata genos" ,(the notion of " genea ,, having been criticized by Baud-Bauvy as an aristotelian conception having been put forward by Aristoxenus)?
Of course the 3 questions would be valid only if the fact that the questioner has not found yet the time to read the greek sources himself permits him to ask.
 
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1. The tables are not showing - at least on my computer. Could this be fixed?
2. Could the " metabole kata tonon" be described as the changes in pitch made on a given scale if we take a step other than the first one as the beginning of a new one? ( for example if the dorian begins from nH we start this time another one beginning from pA but we lower down strings Bou and Zo keeping the other 5 strings as they are, on a 7-string lyre)
3. If 2=yes, then what is the "metabole kata genos" ,(the notion of " genea ,, having been criticized by Baud-Bauvy as an aristotelian conception having been put forward by Aristoxenus)?
Of course the 3 questions would be valid only if the fact that the questioner has not found yet the time to read the greek sources himself permits him to ask.

1. I think the error was from the website. I self-reported my comment.
I attached a zip file with the scales to this comment in the meantime.

2. That would indeed be an example of Μεταβολή κατὰ τόνον.
Still, I would have to look for Aristoxenus' book to see if he has a direct mention of Μεταβολή κατὰ τόνον, but the book is hard to find, even in Greek. I would probably be able to read his work when I'll request the book at my University Library, which is pretty far from where I live now.
Ptolemy, unfortunately, didn't provide any direct mention of Μεταβολή κατὰ τόνον.

3. Μεταβολή κατὰ γένος initially described a change of the Λίχανος within the tetrachord
, as seen when we look at Archytas' tuning of the three genera (Enharmonic, Chromatic, Diatonic; with each change, the Λίχανος is hardened):
A Enharmonic.png
B Chromatic.png
C Diatonic.png
(In case the Photos are not visible, please find attached the ZIP for Archytas' tunings)
We see that with each different γένος, the largest interval gets smaller and smaller, from 23,179 (5/4) to 17,648 (37/32) to 12,235 (9/8).

It is based on this definition that Aristoxenus, and later Ptolemy, developed their multiple shades of the three genera, to describe how music was played by the musicians of their time.
Aristoxenus came up with the concept of χρόα (shade), the concept of γένος is far older.

Could you offer me Baud-Bauvy's article or chapter, so I can read it? His assumption is pretty strange, I would want to see his argumentation.
 

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Κ

Κωσταντής1

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ps. I will attempt a brief summary of Baud-Bovy's theseis in the article above. 1. Aristoxenus is later than Archytas but Aristoxenus's works are preserved in their original form without many gaps so in a sense Aristoxenus is older than Archytas 2.Aristoxenus's writings had enormous impact and one could compare them to the Poetics of Aristotle for their influence in music - this is my comparison. Aristotle shaped Aristoxenus's mind in making classifications. 3. Aristoxenus states that of the three genea the enharmonion has quarter-tones, the chromatikon has half-tones or something like that (I like to write from memory) and the diatonikon only tones. Of all of them only the diatonikon is true and conforming to both ancient and modern folk greek reality, which has and had much in common with the whole of eastern Mediterranean, because indeed Thessaly and Epirus use whole-tone scales only while the eastern islands and Asia Minor use also half-tones - but no smaller units. 4. Smaller-than-half-tone intervals are derived indirectly from the metabole kata tonon as interpreted above and do not occur in singing. 5.The classifications of Aristoxenus and Aristotle are based on a theory of distinction between higher and lower culture.

ps2 please use ratios not cents, this is my proposition.
 
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