Old byzantine music

Ioan.

Member
Hello! I study at the university the history of music and now we study about the byzantine music in the I-VIII centuries. Unfortunately I did't find any byzantine chant from this period so I cannot make any analysis. I have only four recordings but I don't know the century in which were written. Can you help with some examples of how was the byzantine music until the 9th century?
*Sorry for that I did't know in which forum to post this!
 

Attachments

  • 01 - Track 1 - Ode Anastaseos Imera.mp3
    670.4 KB
  • 02 - Track 2 - Doxology.mp3
    1.2 MB
  • 03 - Track 3 - O quando in cruce.mp3
    2 MB
  • 04 - Track 4 - Ote to stavro.mp3
    3.1 MB

Pappous43

Παλαιό Μέλος
Another very old (4th century A.D. or older) hymn is the "Ο Gladsome Light of the holy glory" sung in Vespers:

See also:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Φως_Ιλαρόν#Στα_Αγγλικά
and

By the way, your 4 recordings above, are not what we sing in Greece as Byzantine Music.
 
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Ioan.

Member
Another very old (4th century A.D. or older) hymn is the "Ο Gladsome Light of the holy glory" sung in Vespers:

See also:
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Φως_Ιλαρόν#Στα_Αγγλικά
and

By the way, your 4 recordings above, are not what we sing in Greece as Byzantine Music.
Thank you very much for the links! Those recordings are the examples that our history of music teachers gave us to hear how was the byzantine music in I-V centuries.
 

ARGITAN

Παλαιό Μέλος
Γειά σου! Σπουδάζω στο πανεπιστήμιο την ιστορία της μουσικής και τώρα μελετάμε τη βυζαντινή μουσική στους αιώνες I-VIII. Δυστυχώς δεν βρήκα κανένα βυζαντινό άσμα αυτής της περιόδου, οπότε δεν μπορώ να κάνω καμία ανάλυση. Έχω μόνο τέσσερις ηχογραφήσεις αλλά δεν ξέρω τον αιώνα στον οποίο γράφτηκαν. Μπορείτε να βοηθήσετε με μερικά παραδείγματα για το πώς ήταν η βυζαντινή μουσική μέχρι τον 9ο αιώνα;
*Συγγνώμη που δεν ήξερα σε ποιο φόρουμ να το δημοσιεύσω!
Καλή Χρονιά. Πάρε με στο τηλέφωνο 6937401271
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Hello! I study at the university the history of music and now we study about the byzantine music in the I-VIII centuries. Unfortunately I did't find any byzantine chant from this period so I cannot make any analysis. I have only four recordings but I don't know the century in which were written. Can you help with some examples of how was the byzantine music until the 9th century?
*Sorry for that I did't know in which forum to post this!

These are recordings of transcriptions by the Monumenta Musicae Byzantinae founding fathers done from manuscripts not earlier than 12th c., here probably sung by Solesmes Abbey monks. Hymn texts are obviously older. E.g., your first recording is an excerpt from St. John Damascene’s Easter canon.

There is scientific debate on transcription and performance of the early Byzantine chant. But the same holds true for its Western counterparts. I would guess your aim is to compare these two tradition. You can start with Wellesz, Eastern Elements in Western Chant. That will keep your professors happy too.

 

Ioan.

Member
These are recordings of transcriptions by the Monumenta Musicae Byzantinae founding fathers done from manuscripts not earlier than 12th c., here probably sung by Solesmes Abbey monks. Hymn texts are obviously older. E.g., your first recording is an excerpt from St. John Damascene’s Easter canon.

There is scientific debate on transcription and performance of the early Byzantine chant. But the same holds true for its Western counterparts. I would guess your aim is to compare these two tradition. You can start with Wellesz, Eastern Elements in Western Chant. That will keep your professors happy too.

Thank you for the book! Very useful. My aim was to know how was the religious music in the first centuries, I mean before the fall of Roman Empire.
 
Hello! I study at the university the history of music and now we study about the byzantine music in the I-VIII centuries. Unfortunately I did't find any byzantine chant from this period so I cannot make any analysis. I have only four recordings but I don't know the century in which were written. Can you help with some examples of how was the byzantine music until the 9th century?
*Sorry for that I did't know in which forum to post this!
There is the Oxyrhynchus Hymn, it is the oldest Christian Hymn to the Holy Trinity that we know of, that has the sheet notated, in Ancient Greek Vocal notation.

If non-church music is included too, then you have the Seikilos Epitaph, and other sheets from the Roman period. I recommend you the book from Pöhlmann & West (2001) "Documents of Ancient Greek music", look for the sheets from the Roman period, some are dated to be as late as 4th century AD.

Byzantine Music by itself doesn't exist.
We call our church music Ψαλτική Μουσική (Psaltic Music),

Our Secular Music depends on the local tradition, Greek music is just as Byzantine as is Turkish music, and so is the old music from the Balkans (if you are a Romanian compatriot, I recommend you listen to the Anton Pann ensemble); some would say that Greek and Turkish music are the same, but there are still differences that one can sometimes notice, notably in the instruments used, the interpretation style, the melismata etc.
And the Secular music, it is a continuation of the music of Roman times. You can see that Al-Farabi used an alphabetic notation that is almost the same as the Ancient Greek vocal notation, and it definitely a descendant of the Ancient Greek musical notation:

Techniques change over time, so does composition style, but it is still the same type of music.
So, you don't have Ancient Greek music from the 4th century AD vs Byzantine music from the 4th century AD, as two different musical styles, if you went back in time, you would just see a late evolution of Ancient Greek Music.

Therefore, the more you go into the past, the more it should resemble Ancient Greek compositions from the Hellenistic era, and the less it will resemble the music of the Modern Middle East.
 

Ioan.

Member
There is the Oxyrhynchus Hymn, it is the oldest Christian Hymn to the Holy Trinity that we know of, that has the sheet notated, in Ancient Greek Vocal notation.

If non-church music is included too, then you have the Seikilos Epitaph, and other sheets from the Roman period. I recommend you the book from Pöhlmann & West (2001) "Documents of Ancient Greek music", look for the sheets from the Roman period, some are dated to be as late as 4th century AD.

Byzantine Music by itself doesn't exist.
We call our church music Ψαλτική Μουσική (Psaltic Music),

Our Secular Music depends on the local tradition, Greek music is just as Byzantine as is Turkish music, and so is the old music from the Balkans (if you are a Romanian compatriot, I recommend you listen to the Anton Pann ensemble); some would say that Greek and Turkish music are the same, but there are still differences that one can sometimes notice, notably in the instruments used, the interpretation style, the melismata etc.
And the Secular music, it is a continuation of the music of Roman times. You can see that Al-Farabi used an alphabetic notation that is almost the same as the Ancient Greek vocal notation, and it definitely a descendant of the Ancient Greek musical notation:

Techniques change over time, so does composition style, but it is still the same type of music.
So, you don't have Ancient Greek music from the 4th century AD vs Byzantine music from the 4th century AD, as two different musical styles, if you went back in time, you would just see a late evolution of Ancient Greek Music.

Therefore, the more you go into the past, the more it should resemble Ancient Greek compositions from the Hellenistic era, and the less it will resemble the music of the Modern Middle East.
Mulțumesc mult de raspuns! Din păcate în facultățile de muzica din România (cel puțin în Iași) la istoria muzicii nu ni se predau cele mai clare sau corecte informații despre muzica bizantina. Pana și cărțile de istoria muzicii făcute de mari muzicologi romani conțin aberații legate de muzica psaltica.
 
Mulțumesc mult de raspuns! Din păcate în facultățile de muzica din România (cel puțin în Iași) la istoria muzicii nu ni se predau cele mai clare sau corecte informații despre muzica bizantina. Pana și cărțile de istoria muzicii făcute de mari muzicologi romani conțin aberații legate de muzica psaltica.
Depinde. Domnul Constantin Răileanu, dacă ați avea șansa să-l aveți ca profesor, e un academician excelent.

Încă și acum se face cercetare, și părerile sunt foarte împărțite.

Dar așa e în aproape orice mediu academic. De exemplu, eu sunt lingvist indoeuropenist ca pregătire, și la mine e furtună când vine vorba de dezbateri pe anumite subiecte de indoeuropenistică.
 

Ioan.

Member
Depinde. Domnul Constantin Răileanu, dacă ați avea șansa să-l aveți ca profesor, e un academician excelent.

Încă și acum se face cercetare, și părerile sunt foarte împărțite.

Dar așa e în aproape orice mediu academic. De exemplu, eu sunt lingvist indoeuropenist ca pregătire, și la mine e furtună când vine vorba de dezbateri pe anumite subiecte de indoeuropenistică.
Tocmai asta e problema... Ca nu sunt toți profesorii ca Raileanu sau Adrian Sîrbu. In general se merge după scrierile apărute în epoca comunista, scrieri care au suferit foarte multe modificări în urma cenzurilor. Ne rămâne doar sa studiem scrierile cele mai acreditate ale celor de la marile universități ca Oxford și Cambridge.
 

Diogenes

Νέο μέλος
In Romania you can ask Adrian Sîrbu. In Greece you can also contact Maria Alexandru, she is a romanian professor of Byzantine musicology in Thessaloniki.
 
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