National Forum of Greek Orthodox Church Musicians

greek487

Tasos N.
Let's leave aside the Sakelarides style and the western-influenced musical style in general, I wish you to justify the use of the organ at any way.

Please, feel free to explore the historical circumstances for the organ. Then try to tell me about it.

I will continue to defend the National Forum from what I consider to be uncivil, inappropriate, or unfair attacks.

But of course I did not justify the use of the organ because I don't think it's possible to do so ... at least within a Christian Orthodox context.

Dear colleague domesticus and others, please look at the following attempt to justify the use of the organ from the following National Forum Position Statement Regarding THE USE OF THE ORGAN from here ... http://www.churchmusic.goarch.org/assets/files/PP_Organ_Use.pdf

The National Forum of Greek Orthodox Church Musicians recognizes that the use of the organ in our parishes, either as an accompaniment for the choir or as background music during services, is an element introduced into the Greek Orthodox Church in America after the beginning of the 20th century. Further, the Forum understands that the traditional form of music for Orthodox music is the unaccompanied human voice.

However, since the majority of choirs throughout America are composed of volunteer singers, many of whom lack formal musical training, we accept the fact that the organ has become a necessary adjunct to the choir and to congregational singing --- primarily to maintain accurate intonation, to support the vocal sound if the choir lacks proper balance between sections, or to perform an independent accompaniment if such is provided in the composition. Such situations, we feel, constitute judicious and musically intelligent uses of the organ, provided they do not disrupt or overpower the voices, nor introduce a musical element that is not conducive to prayer and meditation.

Necessary? Hm...

How were Christian Orthodox liturgies performed for all the centuries before the 20th century American use of the organ? Is it really a matter of necessity, as if without the organ everything will fall apart? Or is it a matter of we like this foreign musical style?

Was the organ first introduced as a "necessary adjuct"? Or because it was a exciting, new way in which we could assimilate our religious culture within the broader culture? Perhaps we should explore our authentic, cultural, and religious identity prior to this most recent innovation.

Your thoughts y'all?

Sincerely,
Taso

P.S. At the bottom of this document, it states that this Position Statement was (Adopted 6/85). Perhaps we need to update it?

 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium


Please excuse the late reply, but great example which I can totally understand. But I don't think it quite applies as analogously as your post suggests. It is quite different to replace (or perhaps support) a single, (probably) elderly chanter with limited ablilities and to replace an entire western choir which can perform the liturgy but in a different style. I didn't see the liturgy, but it doesn't sound as though they didn't know the order of the hierarchical liturgy. From a pastoral (and even a basic common sense) perspective, I don't it would be reasonable to expect the western choir to step down. It is demands such as these, which unfortunately stereotype chanters as irrational absolutists.

But, of course it applies. Since the western choir didn't have the ability or special knowledge to follow the same way of chanting responding to the clergy, they had to step down.

I say again the difference between the chioir and the clergy was simply vast.


Serious allegations of all types can be found in abundance in Psaltologion and within some psaltic circles. Are they substantiated here? Regardless of our allegiances, no matter how strong and loyal, rules of fair play will always delineate any debate or discussion. I don't think it's fair to accuse an entire group saying, the "choir's singers weren't orthodox" without any supporting information.


The above allegations were written here (8th and 9th posts). Feel free to discuss them with the specific members for further details..
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium


I will continue to defend the National Forum from what I consider to be uncivil, inappropriate, or unfair attacks.

But of course I did not justify the use of the organ because I don't think it's possible to do so ... at least within a Christian Orthodox context.

Dear colleague domesticus and others, please look at the following attempt to justify the use of the organ from the following National Forum Position Statement Regarding THE USE OF THE ORGAN from here ... http://www.churchmusic.goarch.org/assets/files/PP_Organ_Use.pdf



Necessary? Hm...

How were Christian Orthodox liturgies performed for all the centuries before the 20th century American use of the organ? Is it really a matter of necessity, as if without the organ everything will fall apart? Or is it a matter of we like this foreign musical style?

Was the organ first introduced as a "necessary adjuct"? Or because it was a exciting, new way in which we could assimilate our religious culture within the broader culture? Perhaps we should explore our authentic, cultural, and religious identity prior to this most recent innovation.

Your thoughts y'all?

Sincerely,
Taso

P.S. At the bottom of this document, it states that this Position Statement was (Adopted 6/85). Perhaps we need to update it?


I already have read the above article. The use of organ is a reality, as I see it. But I don't know if it's an artificial reality any more or some kind of politicking.

Also there 's no middle ground between organ and akolouthia. You keep it or you donate it to a catholic church. After this maybe a discussion about polyphony or traditional chanting can be initiated.
 
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greek487

Tasos N.
Perhaps this thread can be separated to create a new topic because it seems like we are (finally) discussing the particular choir of the Holy Trinity Cathedral seen here ... http://www.thecathedralnyc.org/organizations/cathedral-choir/

But, of course it applies. Since the western choir didn't have the ability or special knowledge to follow the same way of chanting responding to the clergy, they had to step down.

I say again the difference between the chioir and the clergy was simply vast.

I can imagine how vast the difference was, yet I still stand by my earlier comments regarding this expectation. I don't wish to belabor the point though, as I understand your perspective.

The above allegations were written here (8th and 9th posts). Feel free to discuss them with the specific members for further details..

Post #8
Πρέπει να πούμε ότι η χορωδία που έψαλλε στην Θεία Λειτουργία ήταν οργανωμένη, δυναμική και συντονισμένη. Κατα την γνώμη μου όμως δεν συνάδουν με Πολυαρχιερατική (με καμία ακολουθία στην Βυζαντινή Ορθοδοξία αλλά αυτό είναι μάλλον άλλο θέμα) Θεία Λειτουργία, δυτικά ακούσματα και διαστήματα Τετάρτης σε πλ. Β΄! Αυτό όμως που με ξάφνιασε και με ενόχλησε πρέπει να πω, ήταν ότι μετά το πέρας της Λειτουργίας ετυχε να ειμαι στο Σολέα και παρακολούθησα την χορωδία που κατέβηκε να λάβει Αντίδωρο, μα δεν είδα κανεναν και καμία στα 5 Λεπτα που στεκομουν εκει να σταυροκοπηθεί ή να ασπασθεί την χείρα του αρχιεπισκόπου που το μοίραζε! Κάποιες "κακές γλώσσες" μου είπαν μετέπειτα ότι αυτή η χορωδία είχε προσκληθεί-όπως και ο Δρ. Καράνος- να ψάλλει ειδικά για αυτήν την Λειτουργία και ότι αυτοί οι επαγγελματίες χορωδοί πιθανότατα δεν είναι καν Ορθόδοξοι στην πλειοψηφία τους!

Post #8 is particularly telling where the author was present at the service and didn't see any of the choir members performing the sign of the cross or kissing the hand of the priest who was giving out antidoro. This post goes on to say that the author was told that the choir was hired specifically for this liturgy. I happen to find this hard to believe. Seems to me that they might be there on a weekly basis.

Post #9
Η αλήθεια είναι όπως την λέει ο κ. Θεοδωρίδης: η χορωδία αυτή είναι επαγγελματική από ανέκαθεν, και μάλιστα τα πλείστον των μελών της είναι επαγγελματικοί τραγουδιστές από την Μετροπόλιταν Όπερα της Νέας Υόρκης που πληρώνονται από την εκκλησία! Και αυτό, αγαπητοί μου, είναι το ρεζίλι και το χάλι μας, που αυτός ο Καθεδρικός ναός, ο πλέον ΕΠΙΣΗΜΟΣ (ας το πούμε και ο "πρώτος" - στην "τάξη", εννοώ) ναός της Αρχιεπισκοπής Αμερικής, ΔΕΝ υποστηρίζει την επίσημη μουσική της Ορθοδοξίας, δηλαδή, την Βυζαντινή, παρά προτιμεί την δυτικοτετραφωνικοκανταδόρικη μουσική, με τις στριγλιές των σοπράνων και το βομβοειδές αρμόνιο. Αντί να είναι το ΠΑΡΑΔΕΙΓΜΑ για όλες τις άλλες ενορίες της Αμερικής, ο Αρχιεπισκοπικός Ναός της Αγίας Τριάδος στην Νέα Υόρκη κάνει το αντίθετο... και κοκορεύονται για την τόσο οραία χορωδία που έχουνε!! Τρομάρα τους...

Απόστολος

Υ.Γ. Με συγχωρείτε, αδελφοί μου, αλλά όπως θα έχετε καταλάβει, είμαστε τρεις κι' ο κούκος που φτίνουμε αίμα για να κάνουμε κάτι σωστό εδώ στην Αμερική όσον αφορά την Βυζαντινή Μουσική, και οι ίδιοι οι "επίσημες δυνάμεις", ως φαίνεται, μας πολεμούν και μας πετάνε στην γωνία. Δεν ντρεπόμαστε, λίγο, να έρχεται ο Ιερώνημος στην Αμερική (αφού και στον ίδιο τον Πατριάρχη κάνανε το ίδιο!) και να βάζουνε ότι το πιο ξένο προς την Ορθοδοξία στις Λειτουργίες ΓΙΑΤΙ;;; Για να "δείξουμε" τι έχουμε;; Η επιδεί ντρεπόμαστε για την παράδοσή μας; Απίστευτο...

Post #9 states that many of the choristers in the choir are professional singers from the Metropolitan Opera of New York and are paid by the church. Is that how pathetic and lacking in talent the congregations of New York City are that we need to pay the heterodox to lead us in prayer? Is this perhaps a NYC "cultural" phenomenon where we need to jazz up our worship to keep up with the Joneses (i.e. Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans etc.)?

I would like to hear from additional people though to confirm or deny some of this information. But for someone to have seen an entire group of the choir not even perform the sign of the cross and receive antidoro and kiss the hand of the priest, that's too much for me to handle. Can't these people even go through the motions to show at least some respect to the Orthodox Church?

I hope that none of this is misconstrued as mere gossiping or rumor mongering. As Christian Orthodox musicians (not to mention simply part of the laity) we should be concerned with these issues.

What do y'all think?
Sincerely,
Taso

 

greek487

Tasos N.

I alredy have read the above article. The use of organ is a reality, as I see it. But I don't know if it's an arificial reality any more or some kind of politicking.

Also there 's no middle ground between organ and akolouthia. You keep it or you donate it to a catholic church. After this maybe a discussion about polyphony or traditional chanting can be initiated.

Statistics showing how many parishes across the Arch. of America regularly use the organ probably don't exist. But I would venture to say that within the last 25 years or so, organ use has declined. Some priests I know have continued to support the western musical style, but have asked their choirs to discontinue using the organ for Sunday services. In several parishes I know, the organ is exclusively used for weddings where the couple (usually the bride) requests an organ be played for her entrance and exit.

I've been happy to hear over the last 25 years many young Grk Orth Christians say to me that they specifically "can't stand" the organ. Interest in byzantine chant has also seemed to steadily increase over this period as well.

 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium

Statistics showing how many parishes across the Arch. of America regularly use the organ probably don't exist. But I would venture to say that within the last 25 years or so, organ use has declined. Some priests I know have continued to support the western musical style, but have asked their choirs to discontinue using the organ for Sunday services.

In several parishes I know, the organ is exclusively used for weddings where the couple (usually the bride) requests an organ be played for her entrance and exit.

....

So what if a bride or many brides requests an organ be played? Is this some kind of an excuse?
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
So what if a bride or many brides requests an organ be played? Is this some kind of an excuse?

This is definitely getting off-topic and straying away from the original idea of this thread, but his is something that I really don't understand either. We have all sorts of canons about not using instruments in church. Why is it that, at a wedding, we throw all these canons out the window, acquiesce, and let the people getting married do practically whatever they want at the beginning and end of the service? (I've chanted at weddings where there was everything from a CD player playing a recording of Pachelbel's Canon in D and Wagner's Bridal Chorus to a full-blown string quartet. Why do we suddenly allow this when people get married?)
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear TG-

A number of reasons:

1) Orthodox who do not know the traditions of the sacraments.

2) Parents who want to see principessa walking down the aisle like a prima donna

3) Principessa wanting to be the center of the show

This is a matter of failure to educate as well as secularism in the church.

There is a reason why the husband and the wife enter TOGETHER, led by a priest holding their hands joined (THREE HANDS-A TRINITARIAN UNION UNDER GOD) and on the other hand of the priest, the Logos (the Gospel).

Traditionally the bride and groom walk inside an EMPTY church, TOGETHER (in a trinitarian manner-priest/bride/groom) representing a transformed life, a life led by the Logos and guided by the Church. They enter TOGETHER because no man is above the wife and vice versa (the Epistle later comes to tell this).

The Orthodox wedding has deep Christological and even Eschatological meaning and symbolism that are the "human" part of the mystery.

Sadly, this is never taught by parents or priests, because they are never taught about it.

Also, priests do not routinely offer the traditional wedding at the consultation phase of the pre-wedding events. Either they don't know it themselves, or they consider that it is "un-American".

But, as you stated, we are digressing :)

NG
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Dear TG-

A number of reasons:

1) Orthodox who do not know the traditions of the sacraments.

2) Parents who want to see principessa walking down the aisle like a prima donna

3) Principessa wanting to be the center of the show

This is a matter of failure to educate as well as secularism in the church.

There is a reason why the husband and the wife enter TOGETHER, led by a priest holding their hands joined (THREE HANDS-A TRINITARIAN UNION UNDER GOD) and on the other hand of the priest, the Logos (the Gospel).

Traditionally the bride and groom walk inside an EMPTY church, TOGETHER (in a trinitarian manner-priest/bride/groom) representing a transformed life, a life led by the Logos and guided by the Church. They enter TOGETHER because no man is above the wife and vice versa (the Epistle later comes to tell this).

The Orthodox wedding has deep Christological and even Eschatological meaning and symbolism that are the "human" part of the mystery.

Sadly, this is never taught by parents or priests, because they are never taught about it.

Also, priests do not routinely offer the traditional wedding at the consultation phase of the pre-wedding events. Either they don't know it themselves, or they consider that it is "un-American".

But, as you stated, we are digressing :)

NG

Thanks Nick. This addresses the reasons, I guess, as far as why people don't have traditional Orthodox rubrics, etc, at their weddings. But I guess part of my question that I'm still wondering about is why things like this are permitted at all during the wedding service. If a choir director wanted to have a string quartet accompany the choir during the liturgy [I hope] they would be met with a flat "no" from the priest, as well as anyone within earshot who happened to hear their proposal. Hopefully we can say the same for other mysteries and services. So, if this is the case, why is it suddenly that, during wedding services, we suddenly toss all of our canons to the wind and bring CD players and pianos and string quartets into the church? Why do we suddenly bend the rules when it comes to this particular service? Because if the priest says no, the couple will just go get married elsewhere? (Perhaps.)

It just seems like, if it is the "policy" of the Orthodox Church (at least the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America, with the exception of the GOA and the rare Antiochian church) to not have any instrumental "accompaniment" during worship (i.e. organs), it doesn't make sense for this all to go down the tubes because two people are getting married.

Maybe someone can move this to a new topic...
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Thanks Nick. This addresses the reasons, I guess, as far as why people don't have traditional Orthodox rubrics, etc, at their weddings. But I guess part of my question that I'm still wondering about is why things like this are permitted at all during the wedding service. If a choir director wanted to have a string quartet accompany the choir during the liturgy [I hope] they would be met with a flat "no" from the priest, as well as anyone within earshot who happened to hear their proposal. Hopefully we can say the same for other mysteries and services. So, if this is the case, why is it suddenly that, during wedding services, we suddenly toss all of our canons to the wind and bring CD players and pianos and string quartets into the church? Why do we suddenly bend the rules when it comes to this particular service? Because if the priest says no, the couple will just go get married elsewhere? (Perhaps.)

It just seems like, if it is the "policy" of the Orthodox Church (at least the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America, with the exception of the GOA and the rare Antiochian church) to not have any instrumental "accompaniment" during worship (i.e. organs), it doesn't make sense for this all to go down the tubes because two people are getting married.

Maybe someone can move this to a new topic...

For what it's worth - I am pleased that there will be only chant at my wedding in August...not to mention that next Sunday is our organist's last Sunday.

What is really annoying (if I may vent) is that while we have an OCL advocate temporarily directing our choir, it's clear that great lengths are gone to to preserve elaborte 4-part versions of things like the Cherubic hymn but they can't bother to learn "Save us, Oh Good Comforter" on Pentecost as a choir and they have to a have screeching soprano soloist sing it.

What should take a choir 10 minutes to rehearse and execute can't be bothered to be learned but OH! We need to stumble through this cherubic hymn with it's point-counter laden melody.

As an individual who takes the time to learn and execute our typikon why don't choirs hold themselves to a similar standard?

It's these things I find particularly frustrating - when it's clear that a few people are mostly concerned with preserving a musical paradigm at the cost of executing the liturgy properly.

Knowledge of the typikon should be prerequisite for anyone taking a leadership role in our liturgical worship - can't the National Forum at the very least advocate that? Or should we continue to build shrines to Desby and Sakellarides?

Thanks.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear TG-

It comes down to dollars and competition at the expense of a single and solitary line and direction.

Since there is no guidance from the top that certain practices will not be allowed, every parish competes with its neighbor for "clients". Thus, even if one priest chooses to say no to the trumpets and the French horns, the priest of the parish 30 miles down will open his arms to Principessa and her family.

It's, sadly, as simple as that.

To rectify this matter, one needs to begin with education at the level of the parents, followed by Sunday Schools, followed by sermons, followed by pre-wedding counseling. If one, from a young age, understands and appreciates what is tradition, and this appreciation is reinforced by the parents and the priest, sacraments, especially weddings, can reach beautiful levels of spiritual heights.

On occasion, we (that is the Byz. Choir of our Metropolis) have been asked to conduct traditional weddings, and all in attendance, including non-Orthodox, converts, principessa wannabes and parents, all then come and ask about what it will take to do their (child's) wedding. There are similar examples elsewhere in the US and Canada.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
@Romanos4

You state:
Knowledge of the typikon should be prerequisite for anyone taking a leadership role in our liturgical worship - can't the National Forum at the very least advocate that?

In their defense, they have been publishing the Liturgical Guidebook and associated guides. And lately, it's become very faithful to the standard of the Typikon of Violakis.

Historically, the Liturgical Guidebook that the Forum has published for years was full of errors and it reflected a lack of appreciation of the Typikon.

It took Mr. Apostolos Combitsis and I to OFFER OUR SERVICE and DIAKONIA to the Forum about 8 years ago, to have all that corrected, and often, reaching out to the individuals responsible for putting the guidebook together to assist them in understanding WHY certain practices were so.

Until two years ago, we used to receive advance pre-prints to look over. Curiously, for the past two years, we have been dropped. No matter, we were happy to participate in establishing the historically-accurate typika directives that now guide the musicians using theh LB. Eventually, one develops a "grid" that automatically generates any Typikon covering all possible situations and quite possibly those responsible have adapted the "grid" approach.

In spite of even the LB's existence, there are choirs that don't even look at it.

NG
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
@Romanos4-

Simon Karas' wedding ceremony lasted 4 hours and included forgotten Byzantine Imperial rubrics......

As majestic as this likely was, a simple "Axion Estin" at the entrance, and "En th Erythra Thalassh" by an ensemble of chantors assisting in the ceremony will change the fragrance of the church from one of heavy cologne to inspirational incense.....

NG
 

basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
It just seems like, if it is the "policy" of the Orthodox Church (at least the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America, with the exception of the GOA and the rare Antiochian church) to not have any instrumental "accompaniment" during worship (i.e. organs), it doesn't make sense for this all to go down the tubes because two people are getting married.

I recently chanted at the wedding of a couple with whom I am friends. After spending many evenings hanging out together (during which I inevitably end up ranting about the deplorable situation in our parishes and the use of the organ), I was sure they wouldn't hire an organist for their wedding. To my dismay, when I showed up there was a harpist instead! =)
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
@Romanos4

You state:
Knowledge of the typikon should be prerequisite for anyone taking a leadership role in our liturgical worship - can't the National Forum at the very least advocate that?

In their defense, they have been publishing the Liturgical Guidebook and associated guides. And lately, it's become very faithful to the standard of the Typikon of Violakis.

Historically, the Liturgical Guidebook that the Forum has published for years was full of errors and it reflected a lack of appreciation of the Typikon.

It took Mr. Apostolos Combitsis and I to OFFER OUR SERVICE and DIAKONIA to the Forum about 8 years ago, to have all that corrected, and often, reaching out to the individuals responsible for putting the guidebook together to assist them in understanding WHY certain practices were so.

Until two years ago, we used to receive advance pre-prints to look over. Curiously, for the past two years, we have been dropped. No matter, we were happy to participate in establishing the historically-accurate typika directives that now guide the musicians using theh LB. Eventually, one develops a "grid" that automatically generates any Typikon covering all possible situations and quite possibly those responsible have adapted the "grid" approach.

In spite of even the LB's existence, there are choirs that don't even look at it.

NG

Yes - but as you would likely agree, while the typikon/guidebook describe what to do it assumes a level of knowledge about how to do it. Not to detract from the hard work you and Mr. Combitsis offered to assist our churches - this is still absent and choirs will attempt these things however they see fit.


This is experiential of course as is everything in Orthodoxy. What is missing within the leadership (or from those who claim it) is how it should be implemented....and not just when things change week to week but as we've discussed how to execute hymnology within the phronema of Orthodox worship.
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
For what it's worth - I am pleased that there will be only chant at my wedding in August ...

Congratulations!!!

May God give you and your wife to be health and hapiness.

End especially for the husband, strength and patience. You 're going to need both ...:)
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
...

Also, I 've read a post above that the choir's singers weren't orthodox. IF it's true, I think it's a very serious allegation ...



...

Serious allegations of all types can be found in abundance in Psaltologion and within some psaltic circles. Are they substantiated here? Regardless of our allegiances, no matter how strong and loyal, rules of fair play will always delineate any debate or discussion. I don't think it's fair to accuse an entire group saying, the "choir's singers weren't orthodox" without any supporting information.


An article here and in the greek edition of The National Herald (Εθνικός Κήρυκας) by Theodore Kalmoukos confirms the above allegation about the members of the Holy Trinity choir (NY) and orthodoxy.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
The National Herald should have checked its resources. The choir in the picture has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Cathedral in NY.

But otherwise, the article only comes to support what many know in the US.

Notwithstanding the Canonical issue of non-Orthodox individuals serving in an official capacity, a huge chunk of that deficit would be eliminated had the special interests supported tradition in the form of 2-3 psaltae who in most instances would have been very happy to serve accepting symbolic remuneration.

NG
 
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