Dear Nick,
I appreciate your sharing with me the insights you have acquired after years of experience.
I appreciate that most of your experience serving the Church has been within the context of the Greek Archdiocese. But please don't forget that other Orthodox Christians exist in the United States, and many of us also use Byzantine music and experience some of the same challenges faced by Greek chanters in the United States. Working together to solve these challenges in a broader pan-Orthodox context has the potential to be more effective than trying to solve these problems separately without taking each other into account.
As Richard also noted, this is well put. I completely agree.
As Richard also noted, this is well put. I agree that sensory experience is crucial to the Orthodox faith. The language issue is complex, so I won't comment on it in great detail in this thread other than to make a few brief personal remarks.
I am a Lebanese-American (and son of a priest) who grew up in a parish where services were conducted mostly in English and with a small amount of Arabic. I am presently serving at the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral in San Francisco, where services are conducted almost entirely in Greek. Over the past year and a half I have studied and chanted almost all of the main hymns of the Sunday Orthros and Holy Week in Greek. (I still chant a few things in English, such as some fast-paced heirmologic pieces, mostly because it is too difficult for me to chant them in Greek. Over time, I hope to improve my facility with sight-reading Greek to the point where I can chant these fast-paced hymns in Greek, as well.) I love the Greek language, and I truly enjoy experiencing the services in their original language. Moreover, chanting in Greek on a regular basis has deepened my understanding of Byzantine music and given me a strong sense of appreciation for the Greek culture.
At the same time, I would be lying if I said that I am completely comfortable. It is hard for me to chant pieces in Greek (particularly the fast-paced heirmologic ones), and even if I practice them many times in advance I still sometimes trip up on pronunciation. When I'm chanting in English, I focus about 10% of my mental energy on reading the notation, 20% of my mental energy on intervals, 20% of my mental energy on analysis and vocal production, and 50% of my mental energy on praying the hymn. When I'm chanting in Greek, I focus about 10% of my mental energy on reading the notation, 10% of my mental energy on intervals, 10% of my mental energy on analysis and vocal production, 60% of my energy on reading the Greek text, and only 10% of my energy on praying the hymn. In short, when I chant in Greek my intervals, analysis, and prayer suffer because I am distracted by the challenge of reading the Greek text. Over time, I hope this will change, but that's the way things stand today. Oftentimes, I feel that if I had not already memorized the services in English from my youth I would be even more uncomfortable than I am today.
Finally, I should again note that Orthodox Christians of other ethnic backgrounds also use Byzantine music. It's not reasonable to expect all of them to conduct their services entirely in Greek. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't go to my father's parish (an Arab-American community in Rhode Island) and insist that the services be conducted entirely in Greek. So the problem of producing high-quality English-language Byzantine music still exists in the context of the broader pan-Orthodox community in America.
I completely agree! However, I have seen very little collaboration between translators in practice. Far too often, I see the same mistakes being repeated again and again with no substantive discussion or evolution taking place.
I completely agree! I have had direct experience working with transcriptions that are both too simple and too complex for Western-trained musicians. It's hard to talk about this subject without giving specific examples, but there's a lot to say about striking a balance between metrophonia and extreme analysis in transcriptions. For example, I've found that big clusters of sixteenth notes are hard for Western-trained choirs to execute and that using bar lines that accurately reflect the accentuation of the text can also be extremely helpful. I really do have a lot to say here (with specific musical examples); maybe I should open a separate thread about Western notation transcriptions and discuss the matter there in greater detail if people are interested.
I completely agree!
I would go one step further and say that such music is not Byzantine music at all, because it fails to follow the formulaic rules that genuine Byzantine music follows and represents an abrupt break in the centuries-old tradition of continuity that has defined the very essence of Byzantine music.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but so have I. See, for example, my English adaptation of the Communion Hymn for Sundays by Ioasaph of Dionysiou in First Mode. I was also recently commissioned to compose an English-language setting of the Cherubic Hymn for the Presanctified Liturgy «Νυν αι Δυνάμεις» in Tetraphonic First Mode in both Byzantine notation and Western notation.
Same here. I completely agree!
Indeed, I agree that this issue is of a lower priority than the others. Although I will note that not too long ago John Michael Boyer elbowed me in the ribs for going down to Ga on a Second Mode Soft Chromatic terminal cadence, so clearly some people are a lot more dogmatic about this issue than others (maybe even too dogmatic).
On a side note, I've observed that Western-trained choirs often have a hard time reading the ison when it is notated as letters above a single staff. In my experience, they have an easier time when the ison is notated as a separate part, either in the same staff as the melody or on a separate staff. If I were writing a transcription of the Divine Liturgy in Western notation for Western-trained choirs, I would employe the latter convention. I still think that writing the ison above the staff is ideal for transcriptions that are intended for chanters. Again, this is a bigger discussion that probably deserves its own thread.
I completely agree! Though I should add that even though trained psaltes can look at an English composition (in either Byzantine notation or Western notation) and classify it as being either in line with the tradition or not, many trained psaltes can't clearly articulate what is wrong with the piece. I have observed that relatively few people (e.g., Papa Ephraim, Fr Seraphim Dedes, John Boyer, Gabriel Cremeens, myself, and others) can provide an in-depth technical critique of such work.
I completely agree! However, I will note that no such committee exists in the Church of Antioch, and as we both know all too well, these types of "committees" in the United States are usually comprised of individuals with little to no background in genuine Byzantine music. I wonder what they do in Romania these days.
I'm sure he could be very helpful indeed, for the reasons you point out. I was merely saying that to date, I have not observed much interaction between him and the broader community outside of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Greece. Like you, I think he can (and should) be a strong presence in the Americas.
I am pleased to see that we are mostly in agreement here.
I am certain you have misunderstood me. I was not saying that we shouldn't move forward; rather, that we should be aware of these issues as a community and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. For example, beginning composers of Byzantine music tend to make the same mistakes in their compositions; beginning transcribers tend to make the same mistakes when transcribing pieces from Byzantine notation into Western notation; beginning translators tend to make the same mistakes when translating texts from Greek into English. Rather than duplicating all of this effort, we should be aware of each other's work (even if it is not directly relevant to us) and support each other. To date, I have seen a lot of coldness between rival groups of chanters, and it makes me very sad.
Oh, but I have! I have been working to educate Western-trained musicians about Byzantine music for many years now, starting with the Antiochian Archdiocese "Boston Byzantine [sic] Choir" in Cambridge, MA. I joined that choir when I was a high school student, and it was in fact my first exposure to something that resembled Byzantine music; only later on did I become a classical psaltis. Although I am now living in California and no longer sing in that group for geographical as well as philosophical reasons, they represent a rather decent implementation of what Stan and Nancy Takis have termed "New Byzantine Chant" (a name that I find problematic, but there we are) -- that is, an attempt to bring Western-trained choirs in a more traditional direction. I might add that their director, Charlie Marge, was doing this work even before Stan and Nancy Takis took on a more traditional focus. It was in this choir that I started learning about the challenges in educating Western-trained musicians about Byzantine music. I continue to correspond with the choir's director on a semi-regular basis, and he in fact commissioned me to compose an English-language setting of the Cherubic Hymn for the Presanctified Liturgy «Νυν αι Δυνάμεις» for them (see my link above for the score), which was recorded on their latest CD Lenten Journey.
Within the Greek Archdiocese, I spent two summers serving the Greek Orthodox Church of the Holy Cross in Belmont, CA. I conducted weekly practice sessions in Byzantine music there, and over the course of two summers trained a group of young adults to chant the Divine Liturgy in Byzantine chant. The group consisted of Greek-Americans, Arab-Americans, and converts with varying degrees of skill in the Greek language, Byzantine notation, Byzantine music theory, and Western music. I put together a combination of scores for the Liturgy in both Greek and English using both Byzantine notation and Western notation, in some cases transcribing classical chants from Greek into English myself or creating new compositions. This experience has given me many valuable insights about how to teach Byzantine music to people without formal training in either Byzantine or Western music, as well as how to organize a choir in an extremely short amount of time and with limited resources.
In short, I am not "philosophizing till I am blue." I am acutely aware of the issues, and I have put in many hours in the "driver's seat" on the field. If I were a lesser person, I might be offended by your presumptions about me, but I have a bigger heart than that. Come now, Nick. We're all on the same team here.
Basil
You raise very important points. I offer my opinion and my answers do not in any way reflect the view of my colleagues.
I appreciate your sharing with me the insights you have acquired after years of experience.
Furthermore, my opinion is in the context of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and may not be appropriate and certainly may not reflect the practices and views outside the GOA proper.
I appreciate that most of your experience serving the Church has been within the context of the Greek Archdiocese. But please don't forget that other Orthodox Christians exist in the United States, and many of us also use Byzantine music and experience some of the same challenges faced by Greek chanters in the United States. Working together to solve these challenges in a broader pan-Orthodox context has the potential to be more effective than trying to solve these problems separately without taking each other into account.
At the same time, I would not support "any" lay person coming to chant in a choir or an analogion without evidence that they can sing, they can listen, they can participate in a group and that they understand the ethos and the traditions AND the basis of Orthodox Christianity. I would first ask them to read and understand for example "Elements of Faith" (translated by Bishop Kallistos Ware from the Giannaras original) and also involve my priest in ensuring that they know what Orthodoxy is all about. Ecclesiastic catechism is a life-long process ESPECIALLY for chantors and clergy.
As Richard also noted, this is well put. I completely agree.
The rationalisations in the GOA that "we don't understand" are reflective of the pietism that has changed the faith and the failure to understand that Christianity is an EXPERIENTIAL faith. One is immersed in an environment where the SENSES guide and hone the faith. It is better, in my view, for a parishioner to spend an hour the day before a service to read it in its translation and then to go and EXPERIENCE the service.
As Richard also noted, this is well put. I agree that sensory experience is crucial to the Orthodox faith. The language issue is complex, so I won't comment on it in great detail in this thread other than to make a few brief personal remarks.
I am a Lebanese-American (and son of a priest) who grew up in a parish where services were conducted mostly in English and with a small amount of Arabic. I am presently serving at the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral in San Francisco, where services are conducted almost entirely in Greek. Over the past year and a half I have studied and chanted almost all of the main hymns of the Sunday Orthros and Holy Week in Greek. (I still chant a few things in English, such as some fast-paced heirmologic pieces, mostly because it is too difficult for me to chant them in Greek. Over time, I hope to improve my facility with sight-reading Greek to the point where I can chant these fast-paced hymns in Greek, as well.) I love the Greek language, and I truly enjoy experiencing the services in their original language. Moreover, chanting in Greek on a regular basis has deepened my understanding of Byzantine music and given me a strong sense of appreciation for the Greek culture.
At the same time, I would be lying if I said that I am completely comfortable. It is hard for me to chant pieces in Greek (particularly the fast-paced heirmologic ones), and even if I practice them many times in advance I still sometimes trip up on pronunciation. When I'm chanting in English, I focus about 10% of my mental energy on reading the notation, 20% of my mental energy on intervals, 20% of my mental energy on analysis and vocal production, and 50% of my mental energy on praying the hymn. When I'm chanting in Greek, I focus about 10% of my mental energy on reading the notation, 10% of my mental energy on intervals, 10% of my mental energy on analysis and vocal production, 60% of my energy on reading the Greek text, and only 10% of my energy on praying the hymn. In short, when I chant in Greek my intervals, analysis, and prayer suffer because I am distracted by the challenge of reading the Greek text. Over time, I hope this will change, but that's the way things stand today. Oftentimes, I feel that if I had not already memorized the services in English from my youth I would be even more uncomfortable than I am today.
Finally, I should again note that Orthodox Christians of other ethnic backgrounds also use Byzantine music. It's not reasonable to expect all of them to conduct their services entirely in Greek. For example, I'm sure you wouldn't go to my father's parish (an Arab-American community in Rhode Island) and insist that the services be conducted entirely in Greek. So the problem of producing high-quality English-language Byzantine music still exists in the context of the broader pan-Orthodox community in America.
Now, if the language matter cannot be overcome, then one needs to begin what what one has in hand, consider it as a first or second edition and then, over time, make it better. To re-invent the wheel everytime instead of focusing on evolution is not helpful.
I completely agree! However, I have seen very little collaboration between translators in practice. Far too often, I see the same mistakes being repeated again and again with no substantive discussion or evolution taking place.
For the choirs that serve the GOA, the level of complexity in performance you cite will be difficult to achieve if not impossible. Even choirs of well-trained chantors temper the minutiae to ensure a uniform product that offers the tradition, and the KEY articulations, but does not create the confusion where one chantor adds a "harmonic" on a psifiston that is off-time with that of his/her nearest neighbor.
I completely agree! I have had direct experience working with transcriptions that are both too simple and too complex for Western-trained musicians. It's hard to talk about this subject without giving specific examples, but there's a lot to say about striking a balance between metrophonia and extreme analysis in transcriptions. For example, I've found that big clusters of sixteenth notes are hard for Western-trained choirs to execute and that using bar lines that accurately reflect the accentuation of the text can also be extremely helpful. I really do have a lot to say here (with specific musical examples); maybe I should open a separate thread about Western notation transcriptions and discuss the matter there in greater detail if people are interested.
Last, to understand the Modes in a Western context, takes practice and a trained chantor to lead the choir. Or a choirmaster who has learned and understands BM. Just like a football team practices at least once a week, so should choirs get together and practice at least two hours per week.
I completely agree!
I am not in favor of Sakellarides or Kazan.
I would go one step further and say that such music is not Byzantine music at all, because it fails to follow the formulaic rules that genuine Byzantine music follows and represents an abrupt break in the centuries-old tradition of continuity that has defined the very essence of Byzantine music.
The traditional music in the Mousikos Pandektis can readily be transcribed. Furthermore, the long Cherouvika and Koinonika are incompatible with the length of today's liturgies in the US, thus the less complex music in the classic books is not hard to transcribe. Fr. Ephraim has already done an excellent job at this.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but so have I. See, for example, my English adaptation of the Communion Hymn for Sundays by Ioasaph of Dionysiou in First Mode. I was also recently commissioned to compose an English-language setting of the Cherubic Hymn for the Presanctified Liturgy «Νυν αι Δυνάμεις» in Tetraphonic First Mode in both Byzantine notation and Western notation.
The isokratima is an issue that is still debated among the Greek chant community. The traditional Constantinopolitan ison reflected and emphasized the tetrachord/pentachord. Personally, I prefer the isokratimata of the style of the choirs of the Constantinopolitan schools, but that is my personal choice and passed down to me by my teachers and their teachers.
Same here. I completely agree!
I don;t think that an Athonite ison, or a Constantinopolitan ison or a "Vasilikos-like" Athenian ison will be of prime importance to a GOA choir, so long as it meets one of the three "ethos".
Indeed, I agree that this issue is of a lower priority than the others. Although I will note that not too long ago John Michael Boyer elbowed me in the ribs for going down to Ga on a Second Mode Soft Chromatic terminal cadence, so clearly some people are a lot more dogmatic about this issue than others (maybe even too dogmatic).
On a side note, I've observed that Western-trained choirs often have a hard time reading the ison when it is notated as letters above a single staff. In my experience, they have an easier time when the ison is notated as a separate part, either in the same staff as the melody or on a separate staff. If I were writing a transcription of the Divine Liturgy in Western notation for Western-trained choirs, I would employe the latter convention. I still think that writing the ison above the staff is ideal for transcriptions that are intended for chanters. Again, this is a bigger discussion that probably deserves its own thread.
The criteria should first reflect what the tradition of the Mother Church is (in the case of the GOA). Trained psaltae know what this means. They can look at an English translation in Western notation and can tell you whether it is in line with the tradition or not.
I completely agree! Though I should add that even though trained psaltes can look at an English composition (in either Byzantine notation or Western notation) and classify it as being either in line with the tradition or not, many trained psaltes can't clearly articulate what is wrong with the piece. I have observed that relatively few people (e.g., Papa Ephraim, Fr Seraphim Dedes, John Boyer, Gabriel Cremeens, myself, and others) can provide an in-depth technical critique of such work.
Transcribers should work together with trained chantors who are also fluent in Western notation. The young-"er" generation has an excellent grasp of Western notation. Approval rests with a Synodical Committee whose members include reputable chantors and of course the Hierarchy. That is the tradition of the Mother Church which, incidentally, has a Synodical Committee on Art and Music that performs this very function of verification and recommendation (or not) that you describe.
I completely agree! However, I will note that no such committee exists in the Church of Antioch, and as we both know all too well, these types of "committees" in the United States are usually comprised of individuals with little to no background in genuine Byzantine music. I wonder what they do in Romania these days.
As concerns Mr. Asteris, he is more than fluent in Western Music, being a protagonist tenor of the Turkish Lyrical Theater and having received many distinctions throughout his career. Thus, I find it difficult to accept that he would not be at all helpful.
I'm sure he could be very helpful indeed, for the reasons you point out. I was merely saying that to date, I have not observed much interaction between him and the broader community outside of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Church of Greece. Like you, I think he can (and should) be a strong presence in the Americas.
My answers and views may or may not be in line with yours, since you stated that "Those of you who know me personally already know my answers to these questions, so I won't give them right now."
I am pleased to see that we are mostly in agreement here.
To your comment that "these issues are complex, and there is not yet widespread understanding of them in the psaltic community, let alone agreement about them. There needs to be more discussion of these issues before we can successfully lead choirs to a repertoire of genuine Orthodox liturgical chant." undermines your first statement "I am generally in favor of moving in this general direction."
I am certain you have misunderstood me. I was not saying that we shouldn't move forward; rather, that we should be aware of these issues as a community and not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. For example, beginning composers of Byzantine music tend to make the same mistakes in their compositions; beginning transcribers tend to make the same mistakes when transcribing pieces from Byzantine notation into Western notation; beginning translators tend to make the same mistakes when translating texts from Greek into English. Rather than duplicating all of this effort, we should be aware of each other's work (even if it is not directly relevant to us) and support each other. To date, I have seen a lot of coldness between rival groups of chanters, and it makes me very sad.
If you really favor moving in this direction, then you must agree that one needs to put the ignition key in the starter and turn the car on. Then, you begin at a reasonable 10-20 mph, ensure that you are comfortable with the cruise and then ramp it up to a higher speed. Otherwise, as I tell my students and fellows: You can argue and philosophise till you are blue. At some point, you have to conduct the first experiment.
Oh, but I have! I have been working to educate Western-trained musicians about Byzantine music for many years now, starting with the Antiochian Archdiocese "Boston Byzantine [sic] Choir" in Cambridge, MA. I joined that choir when I was a high school student, and it was in fact my first exposure to something that resembled Byzantine music; only later on did I become a classical psaltis. Although I am now living in California and no longer sing in that group for geographical as well as philosophical reasons, they represent a rather decent implementation of what Stan and Nancy Takis have termed "New Byzantine Chant" (a name that I find problematic, but there we are) -- that is, an attempt to bring Western-trained choirs in a more traditional direction. I might add that their director, Charlie Marge, was doing this work even before Stan and Nancy Takis took on a more traditional focus. It was in this choir that I started learning about the challenges in educating Western-trained musicians about Byzantine music. I continue to correspond with the choir's director on a semi-regular basis, and he in fact commissioned me to compose an English-language setting of the Cherubic Hymn for the Presanctified Liturgy «Νυν αι Δυνάμεις» for them (see my link above for the score), which was recorded on their latest CD Lenten Journey.
Within the Greek Archdiocese, I spent two summers serving the Greek Orthodox Church of the Holy Cross in Belmont, CA. I conducted weekly practice sessions in Byzantine music there, and over the course of two summers trained a group of young adults to chant the Divine Liturgy in Byzantine chant. The group consisted of Greek-Americans, Arab-Americans, and converts with varying degrees of skill in the Greek language, Byzantine notation, Byzantine music theory, and Western music. I put together a combination of scores for the Liturgy in both Greek and English using both Byzantine notation and Western notation, in some cases transcribing classical chants from Greek into English myself or creating new compositions. This experience has given me many valuable insights about how to teach Byzantine music to people without formal training in either Byzantine or Western music, as well as how to organize a choir in an extremely short amount of time and with limited resources.
In short, I am not "philosophizing till I am blue." I am acutely aware of the issues, and I have put in many hours in the "driver's seat" on the field. If I were a lesser person, I might be offended by your presumptions about me, but I have a bigger heart than that. Come now, Nick. We're all on the same team here.
Basil