Letter of Wellesz to Psachos

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
I uploaded a letter of Egon Wellesz to Konstantinos Psachos, where he writes that some time ago he sent to Psachos his book and article, expresses admiration for Psachos' work and asks some questions, at the same time expressing desire to collaborate with Psachos in the field of Byzantine musicology. The letter was scanned by Eustathios Makris, some I'm a simple "uploader" here :D

The basic information is as follows: the letter was published in "Μουσικός Ελληνομνήμων", Vol. 4 (September-December 2009). It is preceded by an introduction by Markos Dragoumis (student of Wellesz in the UK), which informs us that the letter was found in the archive of Melpo Merlier. One might suppose that Psachos gave the letter to Merlier for translation (in case he didn't know German, which is not clear, however). Dragoumis then discusses the possibility whether Psachos ever answered the letter. He says that for this question can be answered only after one studies the archive of Wellesz kept at the State Library in Vienna. Dragoumis goes on to say that Wellesz, Hoeg and Tillyard were philhellenes and held Greeks in respect, which in particular is apparent from the letter of Wellesz. The Greeks however rejected them. Here Dragoumis mentions Psachos, Karas and Georgiades as examples*. When Merlier asked Psachos in 1930 to help her with recording examples of the Byzantine music, he rejected her offer by sending a provocative letter. Dragoumis concludes that luckily in the second half of the 20th c. the two sides gave up the arms and started a civilised dialogue, as it should have been from the beginning.

The reason I uploaded this letter is that there seem to circulate in Greece various theories on Western conspiracy and attempts to block or ignore the Greek research. The facts on the other hand seem to indicate that a specific group of Greek researchers (Psachos and Karas, in particular) itself isolated itself from the Western researchers and rejected any attempt of collaboration. Georgiades was allowed to publish in Byzantinische Zeitschrift and Karas could go to the international congress on Byzantine studies, so at present I can't qualify the boycott claim in any other way as a gross exaggeration. Constantin Floros and Dimitri Conomos are two other Greeks whom the Western musicological research held and still holds in high respect. So I would be very interested in hearing concrete facts of the alleged systematic mistreatment on behalf of the Western scholars. I don't say that there wasn't some degree of bias (as I don't know), but this is one thing and legendary fights is another (makes me to think of Prof. Stathis, a man of giant stature and herculean strength, wrestling down berserk Jorgen Raasted :D).

* Psachos seems to have ignored the Western research in his scientific work entirely (see Tillyard's "The Antiphons of the Byzantine Octoechus", The Annual of the British School at Athens, Vol. 36, 1935/1936, p. 133). Karas went as far as to say that studying the Byzantine music is entirely the Greek matter (see the same article, p. 133).
 

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emakris

Guest
The letter was scanned by Eustathios Makris, so I'm a simple "uploader" here :D

It seems it was a very good idea to give the scanned material to Shota. His annotation is really perfect. I could by no means do it better. Bravo!
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
The questions raised are relevant.

At the same time, there are other questions that are raised which could shed more light into why there was no collaboration among the Greek and non-Greek circles.

1) What were the unfiltered impressions of the non-Greek scholars of the Greek scholars generally, and on a scholarly level? Publically and in a letter one can craft honey, while in private, the knives and battle axes are being honed.

2) The strong current of thought among non-Greek scholars that ecclesiastic chant had been "Turkified" led to a very strong reaction by the Greek scholars who felt they were being insulted (after all the Greek revolution was still a fresh event). It would be natural for the Greeks to look upon the non-Greeks with suspicion. Could this have shaped the Greek non-response for collaboration?

3) Did Psachos or Karas submit anything to the "official" journals of the non-Greek academia at the time? What was the outcome? This would be critical to know in order to understand the sentiment.

4) In more recent times, there were people who felt unwelcome by the non-Greek academics (Stathis is very vocal about this). Can one get the reasons (the objective ones that is) as to WHY this was the feeling? Also, is there formal evidence that there was an attempt to suppress the Greek circles?

In the end, personality has a lot to do with one's willingness to collaborate or not. The older in time one goes, the greater the personality issue (and ego!) and the harder it becomes to dissect fact from speculation and fabrication.

The question scholars should now ask is the following:

Do we all agree that pre-Chrysanthine notation was stenographic (to varying degrees) in nature and fact, or do we ascribe to other hypotheses, or do we throw ALL existing hypotheses and propose new ones?

The next question is not necessarily relevant to scholars, but to those who serve the analogion:

Even if all possible mansucripts were eventually deciphered, how many of them would actually enter official ecclesiastical use? Especially along a timeline where the length of services decreases.......

NG
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Here is an article "Performance practice and the politics of transcribing Byzantine chant" by A. Lingas, which deals with the transcription method of MMB, views of Psachos, Georgiades and Karas, and their disagreements with the Western researchers.

http://analogion.com/Lingas.pdf

Since we have been dealing with Karas' views lately, let's concentrate on him here too. Lingas (p. 66) tells us that after attending a lecture by Lorenzo Tardo in Athens in 1933, Karas produced a pamphlet "Byzantine Musical Notation" criticising Tardo's views ("questioning the received tradition of Byzantine chanting's continuity with its mediaeval forbearer" as Lingas formulates it). Lingas further tells us that the pamphlet drew Tillyard's attention, who "after excoriating it as a mere repetition of Psachos' discredited arguments, dismissed Karas with what is perhaps the most vividly remembered put-down in the field: "As Kyrios Karas maintains that no foreigner can ever learn Byzantine music since the Greeks hold the one true and Apostolic musical tradition, it would be a misguided effort to disturb such a happy frame of mind"". Lingas then writes that in 1953 Karas presented a paper at the congress of Byzantine studies in Thessalonike consolidating his views on the subject of interpretation of the old Byzantine notation.

Some questions:

1) Can somebody scan and upload Karas' pamphlet in order to see what he actually believed and thought in 1933? The way I now interpret Lingas' paper is that Karas did not hold the same positions as Psachos back in 1933 (so that his pamphlet is not "a mere repetition of Psachos' discredited arguments"), but his views are presented only based on his 1953 paper (20 years ago, when I was 10, I also thought about many things differently :D). Incidentally, just as Paschos, Karas did accept the slow exegesis, but only for a certain category of chants (Papadic genre chants, see pp. 30-31 of his lecture that I uploaded here). I will try to scan Tillyard's article, which contains an excerpt of Tardo's lecture, so that we can verify what he exactly said.

2) Lingas omits one sentence from Tillyard's article immediately preceding the excerpt "As Kyrios Karas maintains that no foreigner can ever learn Byzantine music since the Greeks hold the one true and Apostolic musical tradition, it would be a misguided effort to disturb such a happy frame of mind": "If any Western critic tries to defend this theory [of long exegesis, i.e.], I am quite ready to enter the lists with him" (see Tillyard's "The Antiphons of the Byzantine Octoechus", The Annual of the British School at Athens, Vol. 36, 1935/1936, p. 133), which I think gives a different colouring the the whole paragraph: Tillyard is not against discussing the long exegesis theory, he is against extremist statements made by Karas.
 
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emakris

Guest
Simple questions require simple answers. Here they are.

Do we all agree that pre-Chrysanthine notation was stenographic (to varying degrees) in nature and fact...

NO, WE DON'T. We can only agree that the notation of the 17th-18th centuries was mostly stenographic "to varying degrees", as you correctly remark, with certain exceptions (e.g. the short Heirmologion by Petros Byzantios).

...or do we ascribe to other hypotheses, or do we throw ALL existing hypotheses and propose new ones?

There is no space for totally new hypotheses, except in the matter of rhythm. What we need is elaboration, documentation and combination of existing views.

The next question is not necessarily relevant to scholars, but to those who serve the analogion:
Even if all possible mansucripts were eventually deciphered, how many of them would actually enter official ecclesiastical use?
NG

NONE. As far as I am concerned.
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Since we have been dealing with Karas' views lately, let's concentrate on him here too. Lingas (p. 66) tells us that after attending a lecture by Lorenzo Tardo in Athens in 1933, Karas produced a pamphlet "Byzantine Musical Notation" criticising Tardo's views ("questioning the received tradition of Byzantine chanting's continuity with its mediaeval forbearer" as Lingas formulates it).

This is an excerpt from Tardo's lecture that Tillyard gives (I'll upload the whole article in a separate topic):

"Unofrtunately the musical studies of the three great teachers do not reach back to the ancient notation before the time of Cucuzeles, ... but only touch the later notation, in which we find the compositions of music-teachers, masters and precentors. For this reason the versions in the new (Chrysanthine) system have nothing to do with the musical compositions of the ancient Hymnographers and Melodes, like St. John of Damascus, St. Theodore of the Studium, etc., but only with the later precentors and teachers like Petrus Lampadarius, Petrus Byzantius and the rest".

Now this excerpt can be interpreted in different ways, one of the interpretations being that the melodies that the transcriptions of the Three Teachers transmit are not the melodies written by John Damascene and other melodes and hymnographers, but by Petros Lampadarios and others (and one can add that the books like "Anastasimatarion of Saint John Damascene" published by the teachers of the Patriarchal Music School are pseudoepigrapha, with which the Greek scholars also agree). I don't see anything criminal with this claim. It would be interesting to see the whole text of Tardo's lecture, which according to Tillyard was published by "Italikon Institouton Anoteron Spoudon" (he gives no further bibliographical information).
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
1) What were the unfiltered impressions of the non-Greek scholars of the Greek scholars generally, and on a scholarly level? Publically and in a letter one can craft honey, while in private, the knives and battle axes are being honed.

I think it is unreasonable to assume that Wellesz with second thoughts sent a letter to Psachos in a hope that it would be discovered 80 years later by Dragoumis and would vindicate him and discredit Psachos.

2) The strong current of thought among non-Greek scholars that ecclesiastic chant had been "Turkified" led to a very strong reaction by the Greek scholars who felt they were being insulted (after all the Greek revolution was still a fresh event). It would be natural for the Greeks to look upon the non-Greeks with suspicion. Could this have shaped the Greek non-response for collaboration?

This question requires separate treatment, I guess.

3) Did Psachos or Karas submit anything to the "official" journals of the non-Greek academia at the time? What was the outcome? This would be critical to know in order to understand the sentiment.

Karas presented his paper at the International Congress on Byzantine Studies. About Psachos I am not sure, but it does not look like he was much interested in presenting his opinion to the Western audience.

4) In more recent times, there were people who felt unwelcome by the non-Greek academics (Stathis is very vocal about this). Can one get the reasons (the objective ones that is) as to WHY this was the feeling? Also, is there formal evidence that there was an attempt to suppress the Greek circles?

I do not believe in any serious suppression attempt for a simple reason that the alleged suppressors from MMB didn't hold control over the journals in Byzantine studies or early music. I think there were other outlets than the MMB publications which the Greek scholars could use, but as I said before, excluding Karas there was basically no interest in the musical research in Greece for several decades until Stathis and his institute started to produce publications in Byzantine musicology (interestingly enough, at the end of Panagiotopoulos' theory book there is a chapter dealing with analysis of masterpieces of the Byzantine chant. There is none (!) among them from the Byzantine period proper). This being said, of course there was bias and tension from both sides. But in any case I disagree with equating the Greek position with Psachos' views. Markos Vasileiou, Georgiades, Dragoumis, Floros and Conomos are also Greeks, after all.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
"But in any case I disagree with equating the Greek position with Psachos' views. Markos Vasileiou, Georgiades, Dragoumis, Floros and Conomos are also Greeks, after all."

No objection. The only thing that makes Psachos more connected with the past, at least at the level of paleography, is his access to much of Kamarados' personal library and notes. A lot of that material, is still under lock and key and one day, if opened to everyone, it could shed tremendous insight into paleography.

We have allegations from a respected Constantinopolitan chanter of Psachos' period that Psachos may have appropriated the infamous "key of Kiltzanides" (refer to Syrkas' allegations here http://analogion.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79608&postcount=1). His son, George Syrkas, with whom I spent many summers in the late 80s-90s, was never one prone to exaggeration and has memories of Nileas' notes on paleography in Psachos' possession.

Psachos certainly had critical material in his possession that has since gone missing (or under lock and key).

NG
 
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emakris

Guest
We have allegations from a respected Constantinopolitan chanter of Psachos' period that Psachos may have appropriated the infamous "key of Kiltzanides"...

Even if such a "key" existed, it would be nothing more than a comparative chart of formulas ("theseis"), as written in the old notation and in the New Method transcriptions. This comparison can be performed anew at any time, by any specialist. The material is there, even if a part of it is not easily accessible. The transcriptions by Chourmouzios, for example, are open to anyone, with a simple application to the National Library. So there is no reason to mourn!
 
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dimskrekas

Δημήτρης Σκρέκας
Even if such a "key" existed, it would be nothing more than a comparative chart of formulas ("theseis"), as written in the old notation and in the New Method transcriptions. This comparison can be performed anew at any time, by any specialist. The material is there, even if a part of it is not easily accessible. The transcriptions by Chourmouzios, for example, are open to anyone, with a simple application to the National Library. So there is no reason to mourn!

So Kiltzanides notorious ''Key'' (if ever existed) was nothing than a mere comparison of formulas. However I have to say that going through the book's advertisement one does not reach the same conclusions. Was this just a marketing trick by the editor or implies more on the quality of his ''Key''?

D.
 
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emakris

Guest
Was this just a marketing trick by the editor...?

Yes, I think it was. The study of the musical scholarship and ideology of that time leads to the conclusion that the "key" could be nothing more than a mere comparative work. If Kiltzanidis had different ideas, like e.g. Markos Vasileiou, he would have given us some transcriptions based on his own principles, which he did not. (I mean, of course, transcriptions of the notation before the 18th c., since it was not difficult for the learned musicians of the 19th c. to transcribe works by Petros or later masters, which belonged to the living tradition).
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Yes, I think it was. The study of the musical scholarship and ideology of that time leads to the conclusion that the "key" could be nothing more than a mere comparative work. If Kiltzanidis had different ideas, like e.g. Markos Vasileiou, he would have given us some transcriptions based on his own principles, which he did not. (I mean, of course, transcriptions of the notation before the 18th c., since it was not difficult for the learned musicians of the 19th c. to transcribe works by Petros or later masters, which belonged to the living tradition).

Kiltzanides has a history of making claims that (at least that's my feeling) sound like marketing tricks. Thus in his Doxastarion he claimed that he found a ms in old notation with stichera idiomela written by Petros Lampadarios. Melodically however (based on the transcriptions that Kiltzanides prints) they are basically the same as the melodies in Manuel Protopsaltes' Collection of Idiomela. I think it is very unlikely that the ms in question (if it really existed) ultimately goes back to Petros. Also in his manual of secular music Kiltzanides writes that he discovered a treatise of Dimitrie Cantemir written in Greek. Now it is known that there exists a Turkish version of this treatise, Edvar (from what I recall Cantemir even dedicated it to the Sultan), but there are no traces of it in Greek. It's not excluded that it indeed existed, but even if it existed, it is not at all apparent that it's not a mere translation done at a later stage by some Greek who knew Turkish, i.e. it's not clear that it is directly associated with Cantemir. Of course for marketing purposes such subtleties are irrelevant :D
 

dimitrios.zaganas

Παλαιό Μέλος
Yes, I think it was. The study of the musical scholarship and ideology of that time leads to the conclusion that the "key" could be nothing more than a mere comparative work. If Kiltzanidis had different ideas, like e.g. Markos Vasileiou, he would have given us some transcriptions based on his own principles, which he did not. (I mean, of course, transcriptions of the notation before the 18th c., since it was not difficult for the learned musicians of the 19th c. to transcribe works by Petros or later masters, which belonged to the living tradition).

It’s better before forming any hypothesis or conjecture regarding this ‘Key’ by Kiltzanides to read carefully the Formigx newspaper. There summaries of the discussions of the committee of the Mousikos Syllogos of Constantinople on the possibility of the Key’s publication are published. Needless to say there were among the participants Neleus Kamarados as well as C. Psachos.
 

basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
Even if such a "key" existed, it would be nothing more than a comparative chart of formulas ("theseis"), as written in the old notation and in the New Method transcriptions. This comparison can be performed anew at any time, by any specialist. The material is there, even if a part of it is not easily accessible. The transcriptions by Chourmouzios, for example, are open to anyone, with a simple application to the National Library. So there is no reason to mourn!

One doesn't even need to be a specialist to get started. All one needs is an Internet connection. For example, one can compare pieces from Petros' Heirmologion in both the Old Notation and the New Method. And if one desires a "key," one can study a duplex version of Ioannis' Heirmologion, in which individual melodic formulae are written side-by-side in both the Old Notation and the New Method.
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Isn't it fascinating that, looking through the duplex version of Ioannis' Heirmologion, that even the concept of a "key" breaks down?

This then brings back the questions:

Is exegesis possible at all?

Is oral tradition and the passing of oral minutiae more germane to reconstruct the chant practices than exegetic notational practice?

NG
 
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emakris

Guest
Itʼs better before forming any hypothesis or conjecture regarding this ʽKeyʼ by Kiltzanides to read carefully the Formigx newspaper. There summaries of the discussions of the committee of the Mousikos Syllogos of Constantinople on the possibility of the Keyʼs publication are published. Needless to say there were among the participants Neleus Kamarados as well as C. Psachos.

I have read this material in the past, but perhaps I am missing something right now. Can you draw our attention to any points, that may contradict my view? I would be ready to reconsider it. (I have done this many times in my life...)

Isn't it fascinating that, looking through the duplex version of Ioannis' Heirmologion, that even the concept of a "key" breaks down?

Yes, it is (the specific manuscript is actually Petros' Doxastarion and not Ioannis' Heirmologion).

Is oral tradition and the passing of oral minutiae more germane to reconstruct the chant practices than exegetic notational practice?

Both aspects should be considered, in combination with the study of musical palaeography.
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Isn't it fascinating that, looking through the duplex version of Ioannis' Heirmologion, that even the concept of a "key" breaks down?

This then brings back the questions:

Is exegesis possible at all?

Is oral tradition and the passing of oral minutiae more germane to reconstruct the chant practices than exegetic notational practice?

NG

Chourmouzios produced 40 (if I'm not mistaken) bulky volumes with exegeseis. Of the compositions he transcribed many (most? Entire volumes as the proper Byzantine Sticherarion?) in his time were not part of the active repertory (and anyway, it is difficult to imagine a psaltis who would know all the melodies in these 40 volumes), so he couldn't rely on the oral tradition there. This doesn't answer the question whether exegesis is possible at all ( :D ), but in any case nobody from Psachos' followers has questioned Chourmouzios' transcriptions that far.
 
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