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  #1  
Παλιά 26-08-17, 11:28
ByzantineVoice ByzantineVoice is offline
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Προεπιλογή Paralayi with pthora

Hello,

I noticed the other day, someone was doing the paralayi of a hymn, and he was doing it on tone 1 and stopped at the note pa, but then, he moved to the note ke although the next sign was ison. I guess this was because above the ison there was a pthora for the note ke, but what is the point of doing this?

Thanks
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  #2  
Παλιά 26-08-17, 23:11
Το avatar του χρήστη mmamais
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...and stopped at the note pa, but then, he moved to the note ke although the next sign was ison. I guess this was because above the ison there was a pthora for the note ke, but what is the point of doing this?

Thanks
Do you mean after saying "Pa" he said "Ke" without changing pitch? If so, that was probably because there was an ison with a Ke fthora after Pa.
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  #3  
Παλιά 26-08-17, 23:44
ByzantineVoice ByzantineVoice is offline
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Do you mean after saying "Pa" he said "Ke" without changing pitch? If so, that was probably because there was an ison with a Ke fthora after Pa.
That's right, but why? what is the purpose of doing so?
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  #4  
Παλιά 27-08-17, 15:27
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Προεπιλογή

Because (in mode a) Pa is not just a tone, it is the lowest tone (base) of the diatonic pentachordon Pa-Ke.

Ke, is the highest (top) tone of the diatonic pentachord.

So by being on Pa and changing to Ke without changing pitch, means "the tone i am, is the base of the pentachord but now i will cosider it as the top of a new pentachord, which extends to lower tones (instead of saying Pa-Ni-Zo-Ke-Di i will say Ke - Di - Ga - Vou - Pa).

In a sentence, it is the pentachord (wheel - trohos) system.
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Παλιά 27-08-17, 20:17
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Hello,

I noticed the other day, someone was doing the paralayi of a hymn, and he was doing it on tone 1 and stopped at the note pa, but then, he moved to the note ke although the next sign was ison. I guess this was because above the ison there was a pthora for the note ke, but what is the point of doing this?

Thanks
Από Γεώργιος Μιχαλάκης
Parallagi with fthora

Psaltic diastematics

Contemporary psaltic notation differentiates *but alternates, as well,
between musical genres and systems.

A system comprises of a repetition of intervals, and is named
*either by the number of chords (χορδὴ)
or by the number of intervals (φωνὴ) involved.

Well known systems are the following
(where notes or chords are indicated by "-"
whereas intervals are indicates by hellenic minuscule letters),
and where each number indicates a DIFFERENT interval size from the rest:
*
**** system by repeated thirds* = diphonon (trichordon)
******************** .....* - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - *.....
*
**** system by repeated fourths* = triphonon (tetrachordon)
******************** .....* - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 -.....
*
**** system by repeated fifths* = tetraphonon (pentachordon)
******************** .....* - δ1 - δ2 - δ3 - δ4 - δ1 - δ2 - δ3 - δ4 - *.....
*
**** system by repeated eigths or octaves* = heptaphonon (octachordon)
******************** .....
*- o1 - o2 - o3 - o4 - o5 - o6 - o7 - o8 - o1 - o2 - o3 - o4 - o5 - o6 - o7 - o8 - .....
*
*
Such systems are known as "conjuct" ("συζυγευμένον")*
as opposed to "disjunct" ("διαζυγευμένον"),
the latter consisting of smaller systems
"separated" by some interval of well known size, usually a "tone (T)".
*
For instance, the most commonly known diatonic system by octaves
is that of
two repeated systems by four ("τρίφωνον" i.e. - γ1 - γ2 - γ3)
separated" by a "tone" i.e. "T":
..... - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 -T - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - .....
*
*
The "size" of each interval is usually depicted by
tones (T)
semi-tones or *ἡμιτόνιον (h)*
*
but* this does not suffice to cover all the possible intervals used in traditional psaltiki
nor that of traditional folkloric music, especially hellenic.
*
As such, theorists of the contemporary psaltic notation system have added divisions to the "Tone" as follows
T = μείζον τόνος
S =* ἐλάσσον
s = ἐλάχιστος
h = ἡμιτόνιον


Some 21st century researchers are still not content with the interval sizes above,
and claim that the terms "tone" and "semi" tones are "generic",
in the sense that there are a variety of each of these intervals.*
For instance, it is known ever since antiquity that there are "very large tones" ("ὑπερμείζον").
*
Intervals were defined in terms of chord length ever since Greek antiquity,
*and today's technology allows for quite exact measurements.*

One great debate of today's psaltiki is the discrepency of teachers' "theory" and "practice",
and whether one should chant "theorectical" intervals
instead of what can safely be considered as having been transmitted
by "oral/aural" tradition throughout the ages.


Finally, it is the "size" and "position" of these intervals
("T" and "h"* as concerns antiquity) that constitutes one of the three "genres" ("γένος"): diatonic, chromatic and enharmonic.
This means that "T" and "h" have been used to describe a wide srange of intervals, later on defined by other terms in psaltiki.
For instance, one finds Chrysanthos using interval sizes of
13 12** 9** 7** and 6 units. *
By consequence, he defines at least two "T": one of* 13 and the other* of 12 units.

As such, and given that psaltiki is a modal system of chant,
it has devised "mutators" ("φθορὰ")
so as to change from one set of "gender-system-mode" to another.


The great number of intervals that exist in psaltiki make such changes sometimes perilous,
because one has to keep in mind reference points *in a melody
not only of the PRECEDING
but *also of the FOLLOWING systems (those that are to come with the next "mutation").
*
Overall, psaltiki is practised in "relative" terms of numerous intervals,
that are organised by systems and genres,
and any change or "mutation" from one to the other
requires* having mastered each gender-mode- system individually,
as well as finely adjusting it (in terms of micro intervals)
so as to obtain a coherent yet smooth transitions throughout the melody:
this latter notion is the premise of "διπλοπαραλλαγὴ",
which is being analysed recently by Evangelos Soldatos and Charalambos Symeonidis. *
The former insists on at leat TWO common reference points per change, whereas most psaltis content themselves with only one.* The consequence of a dual common reference point is the "smoothing" out of intervals (changing them slightly as compared to if they were chante alone in their respective system-gendrer- mode).
More concretely, and according to Soldatos' interpetation of "διπλοπαραλλαγὴ",
*a hymn in second chromatic mode with an intermediate diatonic fthora will have the diatonic intervals slightly adjusted so as to smoothly succeed those of second mode.* The most common fthora change consists of chanting the fthora line as it would have been chanted in a hymn in some diatonic gender.

To answer the particular question, a mutation on Pa to Ke makes changes
especially in the downward direction
Di*** Ga*** Bou**** Pa**** Ni***** Zo**** Ke**** Di
Pa** Ni***** Zo***** Ke***** Di**** Ga*** Bou*** Pa

For instance, what was "Zo" becomes "Ga".
The diatonic tone intervals* "Pa Ni"* and "Ke* Di" being the same,
one notes a major change in Zo, which becomes "Lower" by this fthora (becomes "Ga").

In diatonic mode, Zo is quite low (and is wrongly chanted in contemporary occidental manner by most psaltis).* The fthora in question places this Zo even lower, giving a more "affirmative", imposing expression.

In conclusion
the diatonic first mode that moves by an octave system
*(two disjunct fourth systems), commonly known as "diapason",
is converted
to a diatonic first mode by a system of conjuct fifths, commonly known as "trochos".
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Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Π.Κατσουλιέρης : 27-08-17 στις 21:16.
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  #6  
Παλιά 04-09-17, 08:11
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Προεπιλογή Parallagi (παραλλαγὴ) with fthora = new improved

Parallagi (παραλλαγὴ) with fthora
*
Topic concerned:
Psaltic diastematics
*
*
One particularity of "modal" systems (ἦχος), especially when expressed vocally,
is their diastematic "lability"
as opposed to that of "tropic" systems (τρόπος),
which are mainly defined "fixed" intervals,
such as those produced by* instruments,
many of which are known ever* since antiquity.
*
Each "τρόπος" had a predefined combination of intervals,
and the theoretical number of such scales surpasses one thousand
(see, for instance, what Psachos wrote about a calculation provided to him by some classicist).
*
On the other hand, "modes" were established "de facto" as "eight" during the Christian era, but are said to have derived from Antiquity.
The great variety of "correspondence lists" trying to establish a UNIQUE link between any one mode and ONLY one "tropos" is proof enough that the "modal" system is some sort of "mosaic" of MANY of those ancient "tropos".
*
Ancient "tropos" were established on a predefined succession of intervals.
The size* and relation of these intervals was grouped into "genres" (γένος),
whereas any particularities of their "repetition" was organized ito systems.
*
*
*
Contemporary psaltic notation of the "modal" chant it attempts to transcribe
*differentiates but alternates, as well,
between musical genres, systems and, thus, modes
(a "mosaic" of those "tropos" that have been maintained as being appropriate for prayer).
*
*
By definition, a system comprises of a repetition of intervals, and is named in one of two ways, both equivalent
either by the number of chords (χορδὴ = useful for instrumental theory)
or by the number of intervals (φωνὴ = useful for vocal theory)* involved.
*
Well known systems are the following
(where notes or chords are indicated by "-"
whereas intervals are indicates by hellenic minuscule letters),
and where each number indicates a DIFFERENT interval size from the rest:
*
**** system by repeated thirds* = diphonon (trichordon)
******************** .....* - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - β1 - β2 - *.....
*
**** system by repeated fourths* = triphonon (tetrachordon)
******************** .....* - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 -.....
*
**** system by repeated fifths* = tetraphonon (pentachordon)
******************** .....* - δ1 - δ2 - δ3 - δ4 - δ1 - δ2 - δ3 - δ4 - *.....
*
**** system by repeated eigths or octaves* = heptaphonon (octachordon)
******************** .....
*- o1 - o2 - o3 - o4 - o5 - o6 - o7 - o8 - o1 - o2 - o3 - o4 - o5 - o6 - o7 - o8 - .....
*
*
Such systems are known as "conjuct" ("συζυγευμένον")*
as opposed to "disjunct" ("διαζυγευμένον"),
the latter consisting of smaller systems
"separated" by some interval of well known size, usually a "tone (T)".
*
For instance, the most commonly known diatonic system by octaves
is that of
two repeated systems by four chords ("τρίφωνον" i.e. - γ1 - γ2 - γ3)
separated" by a "tone" i.e. "T":
..... - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 -T - γ1 - γ2 - γ3 - .....
*
*
The "size" of each interval is usually depicted by
tones* = "τόνος"* (T)
and semi-tones or* hemi-tones =* "ἡμιτόνιον" (h)
*
but* this does not suffice to cover all the possible intervals used in traditional psaltiki
nor that of traditional folkloric music, especially Hellenic.
*
As such, theorists of the contemporary psaltic notation system have added divisions to the "Tone" as follows
T = μείζον τόνος
S =* ἐλάσσον
s = ἐλάχιστος
h = ἡμιτόνιον
*
*
Some 21st century researchers are still not content with the interval sizes above,
and claim that the terms "tone" and "semi" tone are "generic",
in the sense that there actually exist a variety of each of these intervals.*
For instance, it is known ever since antiquity that there are "very large tones" ("ὑπερμείζον").
*
Intervals were defined in terms of chord length ever since Greek antiquity,
*and today's technology allows for quite exact measurements.
*
One great debate of today's psaltiki is the discrepancy of teachers' "theory" and "practice",
and whether one should chant "theoretical" intervals
instead of what can safely be considered as having been transmitted
by "oral/aural" tradition throughout the ages.
*
*
*
It is the "size" and "position" of the various intervals
("T" and "h"* as concerns Antiquity) that constitutes one of the three "genres" ("γένος"): diatonic, chromatic and enharmonic.
This means that "T" and "h" have been used to describe a wide range of intervals, later on defined by other terms in psaltiki.
For instance, one finds that Chrysanthos uses interval sizes of
13 12** 9** 7** and 6 units.*
By consequence, he defines at least two "T": one of* 13 and the other* of 12 units.
*
*
Definition of the psaltic modal system's INTERVALS in terms of CHORD size
as was done in Antiquity, was first attempted the Three Teachers.*
Until then, only the "generic" terms (of "relative" size) were employed in psaltiki.
*
Further "mathematical" calculations by the 1881 Commission and even later theorists has led to a plethora of "exact" interval sizes, and, more recently, to antipodal schools of chant that sound very different from each other even in terms of intervals (see other threads).* This "interval discrepancy" does not seem to have existed for as many interval sizes, yet, as underlined by Soldatos who cites Plutarch, there were issues of variable musical interval discrimination, especially as concerns the enharmonic "γένος".
*
Notwithstanding some 20th century "discrepant interval " additions to those of Plutarch and to those of traditional psaltiki, psaltiki still has to differentiate and alternate between numerous intervals in its modal system of chant.
Psaltiki* therefore makes use of* "mutators" ("φθορὰ")
so as to change from one set of "gender-system-mode" to another.
*
*
The great number of intervals that exist in psaltiki make such changes sometimes perilous,
because one has to keep in mind reference points *in a melody
not only of the PRECEDING
but *also of the FOLLOWING systems (those that are to come with the next "mutation").
*
Overall, psaltiki is practised in "relative" terms of numerous intervals,
that are organised by systems and genres,
and any change or "mutation" from one to the other
requires having mastered each gender-mode- system individually,
as well as finely adjusting it (in terms of micro intervals)
so as to obtain a coherent yet smooth transitions throughout the melody:
this latter notion is the premise of "διπλοπαραλλαγὴ",
which is being analysed recently by Evangelos Soldatos and Charalambos Symeonidis.*
The former insists on at least TWO common reference points per change, not only in fifths and octaves, but in thirds as well.
In contrast to this "dual common reference points per third", the preponderant use is, further to what was written above, a SINGLE common reference point.
*
A consequence of a "dual common reference points per third" is the "smoothing" out of intervals (changing them slightly as compared to if they were chanted alone in their respective system-gendrer- mode).
As an example, and according to Soldatos' interpetation of "διπλοπαραλλαγὴ",
*a hymn in second chromatic mode with an intermediate diatonic fthora
will have the diatonic intervals slightly adjusted so as to smoothly succeed those of second mode.* This is different from most common fthora change methods, which consist of chanting the fthora line as it would have been chanted in a hymn in some diatonic gender.
*
To answer the particular question, a mutation on Pa to Ke makes changes
especially in the downward direction
Di*** Ga*** Bou**** **Pa**** Ni***** Zo***** Ke**** Di
Pa** Ni***** Zo***** **Ke***** Di**** Ga**** Bou*** Pa
*
For instance, what was once "Zo" becomes "Ga".
The diatonic tone intervals* "Pa Ni"* and "Ke* Di" being the same,
one notes a major change in Zo,
which is "Lowere" by this fthora (becomes "Ga"): Di Ga is GREATER than Ni Zo.
*
In diatonic first mode, Zo is quite low (and is wrongly chanted in contemporary occidental manner by most psaltis, where they place it close to Ni).* The fthora in question places this Zo even lower, giving a more "affirmative", imposing expression.
*
In conclusion, and to synopsize a response to the question,
the diatonic first mode that moves by an octave system
*(two disjunct fourth systems), commonly known as "diapason",
is converted
to a diatonic first mode by a system of conjunct fifths, commonly known as "trochos"
by placing a diatonic Ke fthora on a diatonic Pa.
*
As a post script, one must pay attention with the construction of scales resulting from mutations (use of "fthora"): changes in intervals may start occurring
either on the note that is being mutated
or well BEFORE
or sometime AFTER.
In other words, the position of a given fthora is not always that where changes are to start occurring.* Ancient manuscripts placed fthora in different positions, and this occurs equally in contemporary psaltic notation. An excellent example is the troparion by Cassia the nun, according to Chourmouzios (see diagrms in zip file):
(http://analogion.com/forum/showpost....6&postcount=38)
*
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music))
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-n...ble_difference)
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