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  #51  
Παλιά 04-07-12, 15:07
greek487 greek487 is offline
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If one carefully considers the arguments posed in the post immediately above, the relativism in the apologia is all-too-obvious.

The untenability of these relativistic arguments lies in considering the definition of "traditional" in the context of "what is taken" from the past, if and to what degree it is altered by the "holder" and what then is "transmitted" to someone else.

I would like to present the following thoughts for consideration:

In artistic contexts, tradition is used to decide the correct display of an art form. For example, in the performance of traditional genres (such as traditional dance), adherence to guidelines dictating how an art form should be composed are given greater importance than the performer's own preferences.

Who decides what is traditional and what is not? Usually, and in the instance of Byzantine Chant, the wide majority of the practitioners make the first pronouncement, and since Byzantine Chant is not simply an art for the sake of art but an ecclesiologic element of faith, the church has a say on the matter as well. The Karas Method (the recent Decision of the Patriarchal Synod notwithstanding) never received this approval from the wide body of psaltae, and instead served to trigger and fuel a response by them that included historically-accurate facts and practices. Those facts and arguments were carefully considered and measured and then compared to the arguments of the Karas proponents (including the letter submitted by Mr. Arvanitis to the late Archbishop Christodoulos, presented in an earlier post); first by three committees set up for the purpose by the Church of Greece and then by the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. All committees took their time to consider both sides, to consult musicologists and to even invite the key individuals of each side to offer personal arguments. In the end, the decisions were clear that the arguments of the Karas proponents were untenable and the only rational decision was to ratify what was and is the norm for the past century. Two official Decisions were issued by the Church of Greece and the recent one by the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Yet.....

On the other hand, the Karas Method and its subsequent effects on musical inspiration can be considered an "invention of tradition". This concept refers to situations when a new practice or object is introduced in a manner that implies a connection with the past that is not necessarily present. Such an invention of tradition may be deliberately created and promulgated for personal, commercial, political, or national self-interest. Karas was a noted Greek nationalist and this lay in part as his motivation to seek and transcribe/record the oldest known Greek folk songs. In his zeal, he tried to use Byzantine chant to support his nationalistic arguments, and in formulating his thesis, he unfortunately fell into the trap of inventing a tradition that no one of his day came to support, acknowledge or even discuss. In fact, to the contrary, the evidence is clear that he "neither knew nor understood the music, even though his interest is genuine" (Iakovos Naypliotis in Voudouris' memoirs)

The statement in the previous post that "Karas' connotations (if not actual conclusions) are more traditional and correct (e.g. on isokratemata, the conscious understanding of analyses and elxeis, chanting musical phrases instead of note-by-note, focus on classical repertoire, the use of the older apechemata, the strong push for choral interpretations over solo renditions, focus on historical and musicological research rather than simply the authority of the teacher, etc."....

is disingenious. Traditional and correct on what basis? Compared to what? If Karas INNOVATED and CREATED out of thin air, then is this TRADITION, or INVENTION OF TRADITION?

The isokratemata "rules" were established long before Karas had any clue about BM (notes in the minutes of the various musical committee meetings in the early 1900s);

elxeis ["attractions"] were learned orally from teacher to student, there was not need to "systematise" them in a Procrustean manner advocated by Karas.

On the musical phrase argument, the term "thesh" (cadence) was long-established and learned by memory and practice even before Karas was born. To attribute the concept of "thesh" to Karas is historically-untenable.

Further, if the psaltae of old-time were not using classical material, exactly what did they use? Does the person making this argument have material evidence that the psaltae of C/ple used anything else BUT the approved books of the Patriarchate in regular ecclesiastic service and in teaching?

On choral practice. The concept of a chorus in ecclesiastic practice in the Orthodox world was different than that we use in our day. The "choros" had a very specific constitution: The coordinator (protopsaltis/lampadarios), the two domestikoi who followed the coordinator and the canonarchs/vastaktai (isokratai). Nowhere in Karas' works is there any specific definition that a "choros" should consist of 40+ individuals along the lines of the Greek Byzantine Choir of Lycourgos Angelopoulos. Thus, the practice of byzantine chant was in fact directed by a soloist, aided by two domestikoi. Nevertheless, the soloist was conservative in the melodies used and practiced what he learned from his teachers and accepted by the church. There were boundaries to the solo performance.

On the apichimata. There was no need for the long apichimiata of old, since the notation was analytic and everything the apichimata provided were no longer necessary. The use of the long apichima today serves nothing. Indeed, where is the SUBSTANCE of a hymn? The POEM and the words of the POEM or the "nonsensical" APICHIMA of "Neanes"? What should the focus be of a chantor? The correct apichima of 2 minutes duration or the proper articulation and accentuation of the syllables of the ecclesiastic poem (eirmos, prosomoion etc...)?

As for Karas' inspiration to the "correct" on historical and musicological research rather than simply the authority of the teacher, C/ple was witness to scholarship decades before Karas was born. The author somehow misses this and aims to make Karas the "Father of Byzantine Musicology". Further, many other Westerners were concerned with B-Musicology and offered less controversial theses than Karas (Ducudray, Christ, Lamy, Bouvy, Pitra, Krumbacher....).

The note is made that "the individuals that use Karas' views, seem to tolerate and appreciate a large variety of different artistic and aesthetic choices. (on tempo, the amount and type of ornaments, the degree of the elxeis, etc.)

"Seem" is the key phrase.

Now, on to this next statement:

In fact, the Karas-influenced practioners I've met emphasize the importance of individual expression and individual artistic integrity. Something that I rarely experienced, if at all, with those wishing to simply "imitate the greats".

Truth be told, the Karas-influenced practitioners do emphasise individual expression and artistic integrity. I would add artistic innovation, creativity, inventiveness. Now, how in line with tradition this individual expression and innovation is, is another matter altogether.....

A comment is made: "I'm not sure if the distinction between 'traditional' and simply 'different' was (or is) always clear. "

60 years of audio material and witness will differentiate traditional from different. The attempt is made, again, by the author of the previous post to trivialise and relativise the meaning of the term "tradition" and "traditional" to serve their relativistic arguments.

Now, the author attempts this sophist acrobatism:

"the term "traditional" does not simply denote a criterion that can be applied by simple comparison with what's been done before. "A tradition" isn't merely the sum of what's been done before. A tradition is in continual flux, and all interpretations are 'reconstructions' in this sense."

This is the author's understanding of the term tradition. However, the author does not understand the literal or the contextual meaning of the term. It would be useful to begin with a clear and factual understanding of the terms....


The author then argues the following:

"I think that Karas' critique turned the world of byzantine chant on its head and people had to scramble to better represent their craft."

Karas did not critique. Karas provided a Method and a Theory that had no basis in tradition or historical accuracy. This method lay dormant for decades before Lycourgos Angelopoulos began its promotion. The author implies that 60 years of ecclesiastic psaltae in Greece did not represent their craft, but that Karas somehow triggered them to "better" represent it. The author is either unaware of the hundreds of renowned and acclaimed Protopsaltae and the wide acceptance they enjoyed among their peers and the people/churches they served, or is attempting to discredit them indirectly by contextualising their "worth" along the Kara-Procrustean measurement apparatus. Let me ask the author the following: "To what degree do the Karas-inspired psaltae represent the practices of the Great Church of Christ (if we agree that those practices are as close to traditional as possible)?

Last, America has its own camp of Karas-inspired psaltae who serve their churches well. Those psaltae who belong to the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate now have some soul-searching, because their role is more than that of an artist. A church-serving chantor, as a lower-rank cleric, is also subject to the boundaries that the Mother Church establishes:

Do they accept the Decision of the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and conform to it, or do they go against it, and by extension the Church?

NG
When a scholar, composer, chanter, and choir director of the highest caliber states the following ...
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο Laosynaktis Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων

1. What will surely remain "as part of a historical record" is

a) your tremendous preoccupation,
b) the fact that you actually don't read my responses on various issues or don't understand them (firstly because of the preoccupation)
c) that you actually don't have any knowledge of or relation to scientific research on byzantine palaeography and music and their problems, methods and solutions
d) that discussing with you is really a waste of time.


2. To show you how much you have understood my positions on the matter of the chromatic scales, I send you those same messages of mine I had send at that time. I hope you read and study them this time, although I'm not sure that your passion and preoccupation will leave you to understand their meaning and spirit.

(read the links in the opposite order).
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=246
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=201
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=181
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=158
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=153
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=152
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...2&postcount=69

So, please Mr Giannoukakis, continue to work on your useful research on medicine and leave research on byzantine notation and chant alone!

Bye-bye
... far be it from me to enter the whirlwind of circular reasoning where the reasoner begins with what he is trying to end up with - quite a strange loop indeed.

P.S. Happy Independence Day (USA) 2012!!

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  #52  
Παλιά 04-07-12, 19:25
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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Taso mou,

You apparently missed, or you avoid considering this: http://analogion.com/forum/showpost....9&postcount=32

Read it first.

In the end, you have some soul-searching to do (if you are still part of an ecclesiastic jurisdiction that belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate):

Do you agree with the Decision of the Holy Synod of the EP, or do you not agree with it? Will you follow its guidance or will you reject its guidance?

Happy 4th of July!

NG.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Nikolaos Giannoukakis : 04-07-12 στις 19:29.
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  #53  
Παλιά 04-07-12, 21:02
greek487 greek487 is offline
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Taso mou,

You apparently missed, or you avoid considering this: http://analogion.com/forum/showpost....9&postcount=32

Read it first.
Mr. Giannoukakis,

I would appreciate if you do not refer to me as "Taso mou". You are not my friend, nor my teacher.

[Moderator's note: Personal comments removed]


Nothwistanding, I did write the following regarding my lack of interest in verbally engaging with you . . . "When a scholar, composer, chanter, and choir director of the highest caliber states the following ...
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1. What will surely remain "as part of a historical record" is

a) your tremendous preoccupation,
b) the fact that you actually don't read my responses on various issues or don't understand them (firstly because of the preoccupation)
c) that you actually don't have any knowledge of or relation to scientific research on byzantine palaeography and music and their problems, methods and solutions
d) that discussing with you is really a waste of time.


2. To show you how much you have understood my positions on the matter of the chromatic scales, I send you those same messages of mine I had send at that time. I hope you read and study them this time, although I'm not sure that your passion and preoccupation will leave you to understand their meaning and spirit.

(read the links in the opposite order).
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=246
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=201
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=181
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=158
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=153
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...&postcount=152
http://www.analogion.com/forum/showp...2&postcount=69

So, please Mr Giannoukakis, continue to work on your useful research on medicine and leave research on byzantine notation and chant alone!

Bye-bye
... far be it from me to enter the whirlwind of circular reasoning where the reasoner begins with what he is trying to end up with - quite a strange loop indeed."

Did you not read this? I do read all posts of interest, but as Dr. Arvanitis and others believe, I see little benefit in your posts or in verbally engaging with you.

Παράθεση:
In the end, you have some soul-searching to do (if you are still part of an ecclesiastic jurisdiction that belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate):
According to whom? Tend to your own soul, sir. If you are considering converting to a different religion or a different ecclesiastical jurisdiction, you are free to do so. As Orthodox Christians, we tolerate differing viewpoints and do not impose our views on each other through verbal manipulation and browbeating.

Παράθεση:
Do you agree with the Decision of the Holy Synod of the EP, or do you not agree with it? Will you follow its guidance or will you reject its guidance?
Did you not read my thoughts on the announcement? Moreover, this post from the Greek section expresses many of my views. Why are my opinions of so much interest to you?

Oh, and btw, you do not represent the Ecumenical Patriarchate, you do not represent tradition, and you do not represent byzantine chant, so you are way out of line in attempting to be the 'enforcer' of what you perceive as divine law. Your bullying doesn't work with me nor with anyone else.

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Happy 4th of July!
Same to you! Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness!

. . .

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Dimitri : 05-07-12 στις 01:22. Αιτία: Violation of forum rules
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  #54  
Παλιά 04-07-12, 22:14
phokaeus phokaeus is offline
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Would someone be kind enough to bring up to speed on this "diatonic second" reference? I see no evidence of this in rec'd practice other than speculations by musicologists on medieval Byzantine music, and other than the archival western notated practice of Holy Transfiguration Monastery of Boston.

Thank you.

JPP
That is exactly what it is - a musicological theory. I am in no place to comment on its accuracy, but I just thought I would point out that there certainly cannot be any recorded (audio) evidence of this, as it would have been an ancient practice.
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  #55  
Παλιά 04-07-12, 22:46
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Taso,

You are so way out of line, you don't even know what you are saying! Your postings continue to annoy me, yet I barely know you! "Converting to a different religion"? "Tolerating different different viewpoints"? Are you KIDDING me?? If my "viewpoint" is to bring a baglama to the Analogion with me and use it to accompany the Doxastiko, should that viewpoint be tolerated?? I would be thrown out on my you-know-what by the priest and the people! But why SHOULD I be thrown out? According to you, that's my VIEWPOINT which should be tolerated, right? Just as Mr. Karas has his VIEWPOINT, right? Because, after all, Mr. Karas' "epiphany" of music is exactly that: a VIEWPOINT. With absolutely no basis and no proof. (We BEG you: PLEASE provide it, if it exists...)

As for Mr. Giannoukakis, AND myself, AND our teachers, AND the countless other psaltai who HAVE been following the paradosi, the tradition, of the Great Church of Christ, we DO, in fact, represent the Ecumenical Patriarchate, tradition, and Byzantine Chant!! Why? It's very simple, but allow me to spell it out for you: because we HAVE been following the traditional music for which we have DOCUMENTATION, both WRITTEN and AUDIO. Just because Mr. Karas had a fantasy one night in a dream about silly scales and symbols that no longer exist does not mean the rest of us have to follow them. And that CERTAINLY does NOT mean that his "epiphany" is the afthentia, the authenticity, as far as Byzantine Music is concerned. With all due respect to Mr. Karas's work as a researcher of DEMOTIC and traditional Greek music, I, for one (again, as are countless others) am not influenced in the least bit by his "work" (and yes, I put that in quotes) in Byzantine Music.

The hundreds of posts of this issue have laid it all out, and there is nothing new that I can offer here. Again, it's very simple: if you continue to chant like Karas, you are going AGAINST the decisions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and, subsequently, the Great Church of Christ and its traditions. And you ask "according to whom?" Again, simple: according to the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate. (I mean, jeez, Tasso, how much simpler can I get??)

I, for one, am content and confident in knowing that the Analogia of the Patriarchate will NEVER be bastardized by someone who chants using the theory, scales and sharps/flats (yfesodieseis) of Mr. Karas. That would never be allowed. That, ALONE, should be SOME food for thought for you. (That is, after you put your ego to the side...)

Apostolos
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3 μέλη είπαν "Ευχαριστούμε apostolos!" για αυτή τη δημοσίευση:
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  #56  
Παλιά 05-07-12, 01:32
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Exclamation

[Moderator's note] After repeated warnings about avoiding unsupported personal attacks in conversation from the moderators, I removed once more offending comments and gave Mr Nassis a symbolic (3 day) penalty in hope that he will change his way of approaching the conversations in Psaltologion. His musical opinions are respected like everybody else's but it is important that all members show sensitivity especially in public dialogue and abide by the rules of the forum and moderators' warnings.

On a more general note, it seems this topic has been exhausted and I recommend that it stops here unless something needs to be added that has not been heard already.
__________________
«... διότι σε σας αν τα πω και τ'ακούσετε, θα τα λέτε μεθαύριο σαν κι εμένα.», Κ. Πρίγγος.
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  #57  
Παλιά 24-06-16, 22:19
Феодор Феодор is offline
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In regards to proof and the reasoning behind Simon Karas' interpratation...

What can be said about this: http://analogion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37484 ?

From an interview with Ioannis Arvanitis.
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  #58  
Παλιά 25-06-16, 02:39
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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Dear Mr. Theodore,

Whether you choose to follow interpreting Byzantine Chant in the "Karas Manner" is your choice and yours alone. There are hundreds if not at least a thousand individual analyses of the problems of the said method and approach of chant inside Psaltologion that will appropriate days of your reading time. I suggest you take the time to read through them. This particular thread is only one. You may agree or disagree with the individual comments of the participants. Again, your choice.

What matters *functionally* and *ecclesiologically* is that as a *serving chantor* in a church under the spiritual aegis of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the guidance (edict, I would say) issued by the EP a few years ago is very specific, irrespective of what Mr. Arvanitis, or any other proponent of the Karas Method and Interpretation would like to argue.

I would add that, I *believe* (although I might be in error), that not only Mr. Arvanitis, but a certain number of former key supporters of the said Method have distanced themselves from at least its most sensational theories and interpretations.

If I am not mistaken, the interview you posted is very old and much has changed since that time. Unless there is reason to continue this discussion on *NEW FINDINGS*, it is best the leave it alone. We don't need another thousand pages on a matter that has been discussed to death (no pun intended) in Psaltologion.

Respectfully,
NG

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Nikolaos Giannoukakis : 25-06-16 στις 02:42.
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