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  #11  
Παλιά 03-06-12, 13:03
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[Moderator's note] Mr Nassis, actually did remove the offending allegations which I did not notice in time (my apologies) so I have restored his edited post and modified my previous note.
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  #12  
Παλιά 13-06-12, 03:21
David Walker David Walker is offline
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Προεπιλογή Patriarchal Obedience

This is not directed at anyone specifically, but if I understand the Holy hierarchy of our church correctly, as I believe I do, the Ecumenical Patriarchate can not force a canonical Bishop/Metropolitan to do anything as long as the Bishop is still within the cannons of the church. Basically, while we should be obedient to our Holy Patriarch, our local Hierarchs are where our first obediences lie. I have a hard time believing any Hierarch in America will call for strict enforcement of this. See the very well known example here: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/encyclical.pdf

David
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  #13  
Παλιά 13-06-12, 09:00
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Basically, while we should be obedient to our Holy Patriarch, our local Hierarchs are where our first obediences lie. I have a hard time believing any Hierarch in America will call for strict enforcement of this. See the very well known example here: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/encyclical.pdf

David
We should but ...

There 's something wrong with your reasoning ...

Anyway the Announcement of the Patriarchal Holy Synod on Ecclesiastic Music has a general meaning.

If you know better or you can't understand what is tradition of Megali Ekklisia and what is unjustified and arrogant renovation with contempt to a long established oral tradition ...

It's your choice ...
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  #14  
Παλιά 13-06-12, 14:02
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I have a hard time believing any Hierarch in America will call for strict enforcement of this.
David,

Your above statement may be true, but only because most (if not all) of GOA's hierarchs are a) clueless about "the issue", or b) couldn't care less. As long as the four-part harmony western choirs, with their screeching sopranos and their booming organs, are intact in the choir lofts of the Greek Orthodox churches in America, well then... all is well in Wonderland!

Besides: enforce it on WHO? On the old gentleman, whoever he may be, God bless him, from some Greek village who immigrated to the U.S. and who is offering his services gratis to his church so that an Orthros can be chanted? What does HE know about Byzantine Music and scales and intervals and modes when he barely reads Greek at an elementary level?

And yet, it is these unsung heroes who HEARD the hymns from the Mother Country and who try their best to duplicate them here. They tell you, "I'm not a musician or a music scholar; I just remember how I heard these hymns in my village from the psalti that taught them to me, and I'm doing what I can." And you can bet, back then, there was no "Karas System" or newfangled symbols or weird sharpening and flattening of notes... But I digress.

Apostolos
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  #15  
Παλιά 13-06-12, 22:28
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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Your argument, Mr. Walker is disingenious in the context of respect to the church, in both a canonic and metaphysical sense.

Your argument is no different than: "There are no cops around in a 45 mph zone, so I am free to press on the gas pedal to 90".

In the end, none of the canons, in todays age, are completely "enforcible" and no Patriarchal "ton ton macoute" will roam the churches of the world looking to punish or to make an example out of anyone.

However, if you claim that you support the Mother Church and its traditions, your words and statements should be exemplified by actions.

Otherwise, the entire system breaks down and one might as well relativise everything about faith....

Now, if you want to argue about the problems of the Karas method, there are ample examples that have been provided here (on the Greek and English side) about the problems of the theory and the tenets.

NG
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  #16  
Παλιά 14-06-12, 16:09
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All,

Thank you for your response. As a quick clarification, I do not personally intend to follow anything outside the Holy Patriarchate, and follow its correct tradition to the best of my abilities.

I agree completely with Mr. Apostolos, and find your point about to whom this would be enforced, as a fantastic observation. Not only does this apply well to the "unsung heroes" you mentioned, but we all know that there are few "chanters" at all in the United States who can even muddle through a diatonic mode. Not to digress, but as you all surely know, as an example, the very service of Orthros is largely maintained in the United States, especially in regions with a small amount of chanters, by honest efforts of those who would have no idea what this forum topic even meant. They're just not chanters. You could name very large cities outside of the northeast and midwest that have no one even mildly capable at chanting. This is altogether another problem.

That brings me to my final point, in which I do not really disagree with any of you. On a practical level in the United States, this decision will go largely unheard, and will go largely unenforced. Maybe at Parishes with someone trained in the Karas method who is educated and humble enough to change his ways would, but this too would indeed be a small population. I do not in any way condone or encourage any sort of direct or slight-of-hand disobedience to our Holy Tradition. I was just making an observation.

Mr. Giannoukakis, while I may post very little here. I read much. I know better than to defend Karas (not that I would necessarily) in your presence. I thank you for your response.
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  #17  
Παλιά 18-06-12, 05:30
greek487 greek487 is offline
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This is not directed at anyone specifically, but if I understand the Holy hierarchy of our church correctly, as I believe I do, the Ecumenical Patriarchate can not force a canonical Bishop/Metropolitan to do anything as long as the Bishop is still within the cannons of the church. Basically, while we should be obedient to our Holy Patriarch, our local Hierarchs are where our first obediences lie. I have a hard time believing any Hierarch in America will call for strict enforcement of this. See the very well known example here: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/encyclical.pdf

David
David,

Thank you for your inquiry and insights on the topic.

To explore the significant contributions of Simon Karas to the field of Byzantine Chant, you can browse the Greek section of this forum or conduct your own scholarly inquiries. (I was surprised to find an entry on Simon Karas in the Oxford University Press's The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, one of the largest reference works on Western music. Contact me for some other suggestions in English.)

Specifically regarding this topic, let me only say that internationally renowed authorities on Byzantine Chant such as Ioannis Arvanitis and Grigorios Stathis have a much different perspective on the work of Simon Karas.

Many in the Greek section have also questioned the content of this announcement as well as the process by which it originated. Some have pointed to the continuous lobbying efforts by the 'traditional chanters' upon the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

To be clear, the Patriarch himself has not signed the announcement (it was generated by the Patriarchal and Synodic Committee on Divine Worship) but has in fact supported many Karas-influenced practioners throughout the years. (A letter of high praise was sent to Karas himself in 1995 where the same Patriarchate expressed its intentions to honor Karas with an offikion (special honorary office and title).)

In many Christian Orthodox areas this entire issue is completely irrelevant, even strange perhaps. Truly, these types of in-house squabbles do not portray the world of Byzantine Chant in its most glorious light. I would hope that in lands where Byzantine Chant is foreign, that newcomers meet this sacred artform in its pure beauty and not thru what a musicologist called "parochial, ultra-conservative dogmatization of music theory".

Suffice it to say that the topic is complex, and it would be foolish to recreate the discussion already taking place in the Greek section.

Happy Chanting!
Taso

. . .
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  #18  
Παλιά 18-06-12, 07:39
dimskrekas dimskrekas is offline
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David,

Thank you for your inquiry and insights on the topic.

To explore the significant contributions of Simon Karas to the field of Byzantine Chant, you can browse the Greek section of this forum or conduct your own scholarly inquiries. (I was surprised to find an entry on Simon Karas in the Oxford University Press's The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, one of the largest reference works on Western music. Contact me for some other suggestions in English.)

Specifically regarding this topic, let me only say that internationally renowed authorities on Byzantine Chant such as Ioannis Arvanitis and Grigorios Stathis have a much different perspective on the work of Simon Karas.

Many in the Greek section have also questioned the content of this announcement as well as the process by which it originated. Some have pointed to the continuous lobbying efforts by the 'traditional chanters' upon the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

To be clear, the Patriarch himself has not signed the announcement (it was generated by the Patriarchal and Synodic Committee on Divine Worship) but has in fact supported many Karas-influenced practioners throughout the years. (A letter of high praise was sent to Karas himself in 1995 where the same Patriarchate expressed its intentions to honor Karas with an offikion (special honorary office and title).)

In many Christian Orthodox areas this entire issue is completely irrelevant, even strange perhaps. Truly, these types of in-house squabbles do not portray the world of Byzantine Chant in its most glorious light. I would hope that in lands where Byzantine Chant is foreign, that newcomers meet this sacred artform in its pure beauty and not thru what a musicologist called "parochial, ultra-conservative dogmatization of music theory".

Suffice it to say that the topic is complex, and it would be foolish to recreate the discussion already taking place in the Greek section.

Happy Chanting!
Taso

. . .
Palatino font is obsolete....


d
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  #19  
Παλιά 18-06-12, 08:11
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Mr. Nassis,

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
To be clear, the Patriarch himself has not signed the announcement (it was generated by the Patriarchal and Synodic Committee on Divine Worship)
SURELY, you can't possibly be SERIOUS with this insane comment....?

As for this one:

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
but has in fact supported many Karas-influenced practioners throughout the years.
... again: are you KIDDING me? How many times does it have to be stressed that the Patriarch has only sent letters acknowledging efforts and merely giving a blessing, but in fact, does NOT "support" anything that it is outside of the tradition of the Holy and Great Church of Christ?

And finally:

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
In many Christian Orthodox areas this entire issue is completely irrelevant, even strange perhaps. Truly, these types of in-house squabbles do not portray the world of Byzantine Chant in its most glorious light.
Clearly, this is your way of attempting to totally downplay (some use the term "poo-poo") the Patriarchal decision. SHAME ON YOU! "Irrelevant"? Absolutely not. The issue is VERY relevant and the Patriarchate has CLEARLY taken a position on the matter, a position which, obviously, you do not agree with.

So the bottom line is this: nobody can "FORCE" anybody to do anything. Fine. But just know that from here on out, if you fall under the aegis of the Patriarchate, and you are chanting anything OTHER than what is considered in line with the Tradition of the Mother Church, you are considered to be going AGAINST the Mother Church.

Really, the whole thing is quite simple to understand.

Apostolos
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  #20  
Παλιά 18-06-12, 13:17
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
David,

Thank you for your inquiry and insights on the topic.

To explore the significant contributions of Simon Karas to the field of Byzantine Chant, you can browse the Greek section of this forum or conduct your own scholarly inquiries. (I was surprised to find an entry on Simon Karas in the Oxford University Press's The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, one of the largest reference works on Western music. Contact me for some other suggestions in English.)

Specifically regarding this topic, let me only say that internationally renowed authorities on Byzantine Chant such as Ioannis Arvanitis and Grigorios Stathis have a much different perspective on the work of Simon Karas.


So what? Theoretical interpretation and academic resaearch is one thing but everyday chanting is another. During the first you can try different approaches but for the second you cannot easily deviate from the traditional way.

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
Many in the Greek section have also questioned the content of this announcement as well as the process by which it originated. Some have pointed to the continuous lobbying efforts by the 'traditional chanters' upon the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Ok. Everything you don't like it is 'lobbying'. Very 'positive' thinking.

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
To be clear, the Patriarch himself has not signed the announcement (it was generated by the Patriarchal and Synodic Committee on Divine Worship) but has in fact supported many Karas-influenced practioners throughout the years. (A letter of high praise was sent to Karas himself in 1995 where the same Patriarchate expressed its intentions to honor Karas with an offikion (special honorary office and title).)
The road to hell is full of good intentions.

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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
In many Christian Orthodox areas this entire issue is completely irrelevant, even strange perhaps. Truly, these types of in-house squabbles do not portray the world of Byzantine Chant in its most glorious light. I would hope that in lands where Byzantine Chant is foreign, that newcomers meet this sacred artform in its pure beauty and not thru what a musicologist called "parochial, ultra-conservative dogmatization of music theory".
Glorious light indeed is the Announcement of the Patriarchal Holy Synod on Ecclesiastic Music, focusing on the huge problem with S.Karas Theoretikon and offering some solution at last.

In house squabbles? What a patronizing propaganda! Maybe this is your wish, but only in your wildest dreams ...
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο greek487 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
Suffice it to say that the topic is complex, and it would be foolish to recreate the discussion already taking place in the Greek section.

Happy Chanting!
Taso

. . .
Of course the topic is complex so stop patronizing about it and, if you dare, try to explain it to Mr. Walker
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