Question on the music for second mode Hymns of Ascent

andrew_9687

Νέο μέλος
Good afternoon all,

I'm starting to use Papa Ephraim's neume scores for Orthros and I noticed in the music for the second mode Ascents that the root note is Vu. Why isn't it Pa, since the hard chromatic scale is used?

Thanks!
Andrew McBroom
 

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
This is how they are written in the Greek Anastasimatarion, he is following this tradition. It is executed the same as if from Πα.
 

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
Thanks - that's what I figured.

-Andrew

I don't honestly know the why, but it does appear in a few other spots, such as the 9th Ode of Theophany. That one makes slightly more sense as it switches between hard and soft chromatic, allowing for easy switch between the scales. In a stand alone group of hymns like the αναβαθμοί,I don't know why it isn't just placed on Πα. If you find any answers, please post here!
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
There is no difference. It is second tone all the way through. The difference is created consequent to how our ear perceives second tone DIPHONIC and second tone TETRACHORDAL.

A cursory examination of Panagiotis Agathoklis Theoritikon (late 1800s) explains this very clearly.

Second tone can be chanted in the diphonic manner or the tetrachordal.

If one considers the Chrysanthine intervals for the chromatic genus, it is clear that two relationships exist: tetrachords (ni-pa-vou-ga=vou-ga-di-Ke=di-ke-zo-ni) or homologous diphones (vou-ga-di=di-ke-zo=ni-pa-vou).

It is irrelevant on which "note" your tonic is. If you chant following tetrachords, the acoustic impression is that of "hard chromatic" event though historically, tradition psaltae do NOT chant tetrachordal second tone as if it were plagal second. they chant it more like a soft chromatic as they move through the tetrachord. Consider how psaltae of old-time chanted the Canons of Holy Monday-Wednesday Orthros.

The modulation to Pa with the placement of the martyria of the hard chromatic Pa (or Ga or Ke) was an innovation of the past 60 years to "help" the Athenian psaltae who could not understand this relationship, even as their compatriots from Asia Minor and the Middle East tried to explain it to them.

Thus, Fr. Ephraim is correct in using VOU as his "tonic".

NG
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Good afternoon all,

I'm starting to use Papa Ephraim's neume scores for Orthros and I noticed in the music for the second mode Ascents that the root note is Vu. Why isn't it Pa, since the hard chromatic scale is used?

Thanks!
Andrew McBroom

Indeed! The base note in Papa Ephraim's neume scores for the Second Mode Ascents (Αναβαθμοί) is VU. The base note for his More Honourable Than The Cherubim in Second Mode is PA, however. Is this contradictory or incorrect?

Especially for beginners in chant, I would say that the Second Mode borrows the scale of Plagal Second for pieces such as the Kataniktika, Anabathmoi, Anastasima, Prosomoia, Kanones, Katabasies, and Doxologies. Similarly, Plagal Second Mode borrows the scale of Second Mode (from DI) for many of its Eirmological (syllabic) pieces. This borrowing is what we call Επείσακτα μέλη, an untenable and inaccurate idea from a music theory standpoint. But useful in helping beginners continue their progress.

It's a judgment call, in my opinion. I don't see a large enough difference in practicec between the Epeisakta Meli view and the much more accurate explanations of "No. This is completely Second Mode (Plagal Second Mode) with the same scale, just a different version of Second Mode (Plagal Second Mode).

The Greek Anastasimatarion itself in the Syntomon second-half of the book shows the base note as PA. The parallagi (solfege) is from PA as well. Some respected teachers also suggest that this version of Second Mode (from PA) could be based from the pitch level of VU (even though we name it PA) because, contrary to Plagal Second Mode, it doesn't go as high.

In many cases, differnent theoretical understandings make a dramatic difference in practice (e.g. isokratema). In this case, the simpler but less theoretically accurate teaching is more useful for beginners than the better but more difficult theoretical understanding - especially since this type of Second Mode (Plagal Second Mode) sounds so much like Plagal Second Mode (Second Mode).

 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM


... the much more accurate explanations of "No. This is completely Second Mode (Plagal Second Mode) with the same scale, just a different version of Second Mode (Plagal Second Mode).


From a theoretical standpoint, I would be very hesitant to refer to the hard chromatic hymns of second mode (anavathmoi, katanyktika, etc) as being "in plagal second mode," or even as using the "plagal second scale." I hear this often, from a lot of people - both students here at HCHC, and even some members on the Greek side of the forum.

For instance, I once asked in a topic on the Greek side if there was music for the Stichologia of Vespers in second mode hard chromatic (to match the score composed by Papa Ephraim in English, which can be found here), and a member responded to me by asking (rhetorically - at least according to him) - "is there a difference between second mode hard chromatic and plagal second?" (or something to that effect, implying that I could simply substitute the music for the plagal second Stichologia of Vespers instead of searching for a score in second mode hard chromatic.)

This is an extremely problematic view, though, for there is indeed a huge difference between second mode hard chromatic and plagal second mode, and that difference is, of course, the theseis - formulae - that comprise the mode. For this reason, I find it far preferable to define modes in terms of both the formulae and the scales - since many, many modes use more than one scale (e.g. fourth mode). This prevents the erroneous view of conflating different modes, simply because they happen to utilize the same intervals.

I realize, Mr. Nassis, that in all likelihood you are not advocating a conflation of these modes, but the idea did seem relevant to this topic. :) Perhaps the distinction will be helpful to some - and it makes far more theoretical sense for me to explain to a student that, "second mode has several variants, one of which utilizes the hard chromatic scale and one of which utilizes the soft chromatic," than to say, "some of the hymns in the second mode section of the Anastasimatarion are actually in plagal second mode".

-Gabriel
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Thanks so much Mr. Cremeens for your post!

This is the first time I hear of someone possibly conflating Plagal Second and Second Mode hard chromatic, as you state here:

For instance, I once asked in a topic on the Greek side if there was music for the Stichologia of Vespers in second mode hard chromatic (to match the score composed by Papa Ephraim in English, which can be found here), and a member responded to me by asking (rhetorically - at least according to him) - "is there a difference between second mode hard chromatic and plagal second?" (or something to that effect, implying that I could simply substitute the music for the plagal second Stichologia of Vespers instead of searching for a score in second mode hard chromatic.)

Personally, I always like to present the "Theos Kyrios" of Second Mode vs the "Theos Kyrios" of Plagal Second Mode vs the "Theos Kyrios" of Fourth Mode (in addition to their respective Resurrection Apolytikia) in order to contrast the differences in melody (πορεία του μέλους) even though the same scale is being use.

In the post you responded to, I simply wanted to describe how practical the teaching of Epeisakta Meli is (as described by Ioannis Margaziotis in his Theory Booklet), especially for beginning students.

Happy chanting!

 
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