Communion of the laity

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foI18iNpZL8&feature=related

Theodoros Vasilikos, as talented as he is (well, was), overstepped the boundaries many many times in his service to the church. He is not unique. There are many others who take the liberty of the period of the communion to step outside the bounds of seriousness and "ιεροπρέπεια". One can be talented and yet remain within the bounds of ecclesiastic respect.

Also, please note my comment in its entirety, otherwise some other readers may take it out of its intended context and it can become misrepresented. I have followed way too many dialogues in the Psaltologion over the years that are based on cropped quotations, paraphrasings etc. which unfortunately end up with unintended consequences :)

Thank you,

NG

I quoted only this part of your post because I didn't have any other disagreement about it.
Also, I don't disagree with your last message.

Although, I have to emphasize that kratemata can be used during communion, especially when there are many people to it. We have kratemata, composed in the traditional way, which can be chanted within the bounds of ecclesiastic respect, as you say.

Thank you
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
A sample from Fr. Constantine Papagiannis' ''Menologion'', February 10th, st. Charalampos feast.

Koinonikon, The righteous shall be in eternal memory; Alleluia

Nine appropriate verses (in this occasion from various psalms) are following. After each verse the koinonikon is repeated. At the end ''Glory ... Now and ..''

I do not see any historical justification for compiling koinonikon from various psalms. If there has to be a psalm, it must be one, just as with the verses of the prokeimena.

P.S. Of course another question is why one has to change a system that was in force for the last eight centuries and suggest a new one which to a considerable extent is based on personal choices (selection of Saints with their own koinonikon, selection of verses which one thinks are appropriate and so on) and not on historical data. In any case, in order to be consistent one has to do the same "antiphonisation" process with the Trisagion and the Cheroubikon. Well, maybe we shall see this as well :cool: However I don't want to discuss these issues as such discussions lead to nowhere.
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
I do not see any historical justification for compiling koinonikon from various psalms. If there has to be a psalm, it must be one, just as with the verses of the prokeimena.

P.S. Of course another question is why one has to change a system that was in force for the last eight centuries and suggest a new one which to a considerable extent is based on personal choices (selection of Saints with their own koinonikon, selection of verses which one thinks are appropriate and so on) and not on historical data. In any case, in order to be consistent one has to do the same "antiphonisation" process with the Trisagion and the Cheroubikon. Well, maybe we shall see this as well :cool: However I don't want to discuss these issues as such discussions lead to nowhere.

First of all, I have to make a clarification about my post mentioned by Shota.

A member asked for a Koinonikon example by fr. K. Papagiannis. I scanned two pages from his Menologion. Maybe it wasn't the best example but it was handy.

Fr. Konstantinos has very recently published Antiphonarion, a book dedicated to the antiphonic system of psalmody (Prokeimena, Koinonika, etc). I don't have it, but probably Fr. konstantinos has described more systematically the above system.

So, if a member can upload something from Antiphonarion your observation might get more satisfied.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
"Today, many chanters, in violation of formality, have replaced the koinonika with verses of Polyeleoi or other quasi-psalmic or psalm-inspired verses (e.g. Που πορευθω απο του πνευματος σου....Κυριε ο Κυριος ημων) which has no relation to the context of the celebration (the day) or the feast.

NG

Are you refering the moveable Eklogi from the 3rd Stasis of the Polyeleoi?

JPP
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
At the Ecumenical Patriarchate, they chant the slow Koinonikon verse during the communion of the clergy, they interrupt it and repeat many times the nearly recitativo version of the communion hymn of Holy Thursday "Tou Deipnou Sou tou Mystikou / Of Thy Mystical Supper (?)" until communion has finished. There are live videos from the Patriarchate available to watch the practice if you are interested (I think they include it from memory).

I chant the slow Koinonikon, make a small pause when the priest calls the people to come forward and continue the slow melos. I add a kratema if more time is required.

Generally the only thing I allow here at the Metropoli has been the chanting of the long Communion Hymn Verse, during the communion of the Clergy and a Kratima if necessary concluding with an Alleluia (except for Pascha) , and "Of Thy Mystic Supper" as described for the Laity(Pascha, I usually repeat the long Koinonikon in the language opposite of what I chanted during the Clergy Communion -i.e. if I chanted Greek, I do English, or vice versa). Of course I have little control over what substitutes do in my absence, but that is the strict rule here.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Generally the only thing I allow here at the Metropoli has been the chanting of the long Communion Hymn Verse, during the communion of the Clergy and a Kratima if necessary concluding with an Alleluia (except for Pascha) , and "Of Thy Mystic Supper" as described for the Laity(Pascha, I usually repeat the long Koinonikon in the language opposite of what I chanted during the Clergy Communion -i.e. if I chanted Greek, I do English, or vice versa). Of course I have little control over what substitutes do in my absence, but that is the strict rule here.

....Not withstanding what Fr. Papagiannis writes and notwithstanding the history of the koinonikon, and in the absence of any other directive from the Patriarchate, this is exactly what one ought to be doing. :)

NG.
 

zinoviev

Μέλος
One must not forget that at the time the Typika were written people received communion no more than 3-4 times per year; thus the typikon writers did not give us any concrete directions as about what to chant during the communion of the laity.
Today I noticed the following instruction in the book of the priest (Ίερατικόν, the book is a Bulgarian one): "The christian who has taken the Holy Communion wipes the lips with the communion-towel, makes a bow and leaves. During the Holy Communion the chanters sing the koinonikon "Partake of the body of Christ, taste the source of immortaility" or a "sweet-voice" irmos. There are some "sweet-voice" irmoses at the end of the book "Psaltic Eucharist".

According to http://analogion.com/Koinonikon.html the singing of the koinonikon for Easter "Partake of the body of Christ" is a Slavonic practice (and I think it is a Romanian also). Still, I think it is worth to try to find some instructions about this matter in the Greek priest books, old or new. Maybe there are no instructions in the typikon only because there are instructions in the Ίερατικόν?

After the priest exits with the chalice he says "Come with fear of God, with faith and love!" and to this we respond "The one who comes in the name of the lord is blessed. The Lord is a God and He showed himself to us." I checked some Russian priest-books from the last 3 centuries and they say that we sing "The one who comes..." before the communion of the laity, not when it finishes. It seems this somehow undermines the theory that the same Koinonikon that was used during the Communion of the priesthood continues after a short interruption during the communion of the laity. Does the Greek tradition prescribe to sing "The one who comes..." and if yes, then when - before or after the communion of the laity?
 
Last edited:

herron.samuel

Ieropsaltis
As I experienced it at Agia Eirini: The chanting of the long Koinonikon by the Lampadarios during Communion of the clergy, pause NO MATTER WHERE IN THE KOINONIKON (the reason for this, as was told to me, was the "chalice waits for nothing". This is also reflected in that when the priest comes out for the Great Entrance they finish the Cherubic hymn by plain chanting the final words in the base of the mode), after priest says "With the Fear of God..." then a single chanter chants in 2nd mode very quickly, "Blessed be the name of the Lord, God is the Lord and hath revealed himself unto us." Then the Koinonikon is picked up where left off (sometimes, if stopped in an awkward spot, will move back to the closest martyria and go from there). If more time was needed at the finishing of the Koinonikon, then usually a Kratima was used. All the Koinonika I saw used at Agia Eirini had Kratima in them, so it wasn't an outside composition, just taken from the original composition itself. If the Communion line began to show signs of ending before the finishing of the Kratima, then the Lampadarios would just jump to the Alleluia.

So in this practice, before the Communion of the Laity.

As I observed it at the Patriarchate: Chanting of the Long Koinonikon before. I wasn't looking at the composition as it was chanted, so I cannot speak with as much authority, but it did seem like the Lampadarios had not finished the whole piece when the priest came out for "With the Fear of God...". After that, a single chanter chanted in 2nd Mode "Blessed be the Name..." After that, as Dimitri stated, they repeated quickly, and over and over, "Tou Deipnou Sou..."

One other thing worth noting is that at the Patriarchate, there was probably only 10-20 people receiving Communion, whereas at Agia Eirini the line was several hundred long and took, roughly, 10+ minutes to serve everyone. I imagine this has some effect on what type of practice a chanter must employ. As for myself, when I chanted at a larger church we used Full Koinonika and broke at wherever we were when the priest came out, but now that I chant mostly in mission parishes I use the "Tou Deipnou Sou" practice and a short or abbreviated Koinonikon during the Communion of the Clergy.

Another practice we used while I chanted at the larger parish was during the Communion of the Clergy, we chanted the whole psalm of "Praise the Lord..." (Psalm 148 and 149) in Heirmologic with an Alleluia after each verse. We did this in English using Papa Ephraim's compositions such as this one: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/Orthros/b3170_Verses.pdf
We then added in the first two verses and added an Alleluia after each verse. We did this in the Mode of the week. After the priest said "With the fear of God..." we then chanted the Long Koinonikon in Greek. This we only did on Sundays where the Koinonikon was "Praise the Lord..." If another Koinonikon was in force, we just chanted the Long version of that.

To speak to your specific question, zinoviev, I have always heard "Blessed be the Name..." before the communion of the Laity, but chanted very quickly in 2nd Mode by a single chanter.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
The different churches have different traditions and typika and that is the source of the discrepancy noted above.

In the Greek Orthodox tradition, although the typikon of Violakis says nothing specific about the sequence of hymns and alternatives of the Koinonikon part of the service, Samuel's notes are correct.

It depends what the context and environment is, regarding the specifics.

NG
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
No composition.

We simply recite it melodically in the "chyma" (χύμα) manner a couple of times allowing everyone in the group to participate. We have a priest and a deacon who offer communiion and the communion flows rather quickly. For a parish with one priest on a major feast day, this can become quite "boring".

NG.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
No composition.

We simply recite it melodically in the "chyma" (χύμα) manner a couple of times allowing everyone in the group to participate. We have a priest and a deacon who offer communiion and the communion flows rather quickly. For a parish with one priest on a major feast day, this can become quite "boring".

NG.

We inherited a 1st Mode sticheraric melody, which I improved upon a bit. We only have the celebrant offering the chalice, but a couple of times through and a long Alleluia at the end covers a lot of communicants.

JPP
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Here is an excerpt from the Greek Apostolos of the 11/12th c. kept in Moscow Theological Academy and studied by Mansvetov:

attachment.php


Mansvetov interprets it in a sense that either the koinonikon was said twice, or that a greater number of verses was selected for it (referring to the practice of chanting the entire psalm during the communion?). Since by that time it is almost certain that the practice of chanting the entire psalm disappeared*, it is more natural to assume that a somewhat short composition of the koinonikon was chanted during the communion of the clery (therefore called μικρόν) and then the same koinonikon was repeated during the communion of the laity to a more extended melody (and which therefore was called διπλούν).

* the last existing witness is the Archieratikon manuscript British Library Add. 34060 published by Taft and reflecting the practice of the 10/11th c. The music mss of the 12th c. clearly show that single verse elaborate koinonika were chanted.
 

Attachments

  • Mansvetov.jpg
    24 KB · Views: 73
Top