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  #21  
Παλιά 21-05-14, 16:30
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο Nikolaos Giannoukakis Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
2) "We cannot judge by today's repertory to conclude what was the repertory of the Constantinopolitan chanters in the 19th c.".

Well, if you did not have the opportunity to speak with the psaltae of old time, this might be a potential statement that one could propose. The psaltae of old-time are very clear about what they were taught and what they saw "in action" at the analogion in the late 1800s, early 1900s and that is nothing more than the classical music. The Patriarchal Church was a different matter altogether and even more conservative and strict...The Axion Estin, and Kalophonic hymn material in Nektarios is largely a compilation of "mathimata", and even the monasteries of Athos did not use them all (my personal discussions with the late-blessed Fr. Panaretos of Philotheou).
To give just a little example, are Gerasimos Kanellidis' Leitourgika "classical music"? Would Neleus Kamarados chant only "classical music"?

Already with a quick search one can find a sufficient number of Athonite Axion esti recordings from Nektarios' books, e.g. Filanthidis' Axion esti in Deuteroprotos (Karcigar), the one composed by Anastasios from Parla in Pl. 4, the one by Charalampos Papanikolaou in Pl. 4, the anonymous composition in Pl. 2 and so on. The point is that execution of these melodies requires technical skill and not all Athonites have it. Those that don't have it, also don't chant them (more difficult ones, at least), I presume (in his teaching recording of the Leitourgika in Plagal First by Kanellidis edited by A. Kyriazidis (and of Sarantaekklesiotis' Axion esti in Pl. 1), Fr. Daniel of the Danielaioi brotherhood characteristically remarks that these Leitourgika are πολύ ωραία, but θέλουν μονάχα λίγο μελέτη περισσότερα. That's an Athonite way of saying what is reachable for somebody with a modest musical talent and what is not, I guess ). As far as Fr. Panaretos of the blessed memory is concerned, his communication is important, but I don't see why would it contradict what I wrote; Fr. Panaretos himself represents a new trend in Athonite chanting (the new trend is noticeable from 1960s, when the influence of Karamanis, Theodosopoulos and Taliadoros started to be felt, later on with the Simonopetra style on ascendance, and recently also with the invasion of Karas-influenced chanting): he was almost 60 when he went to Athos (thus a very experienced chanter with established repertory and taste) and e.g. in his teaching tapes of the Liturgy melodies he chants not from Nektarios' books, but from Karamanis. And in what qualitative respect do compositions from Karamanis' book, many of which bear makam names, differ from the older ones?

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3) "that the older repertory got displaced by newer compositions by Kamarados, Hatziathanasiou, Palasis, Pringos, Stanitsas etc.".

This is true. But this phenomenon became de riguer in Athens largely. Constantinopolitan churches were more conservative.
All the composers I named were Constantinopolitans. And I don't see the point in arguing that their compositions were chanted in Constantinople, because they were (as a little anecdote, (narrated in Tsiounis' book on Stanitsas, I believe) upon becoming Lampadarios at the Patriarchate, Stanitsas got asked by his friends from his Palasis times why he wouldn't chant some mathemata of his teacher, to which he responded (quoting from the memory): "Forget those senseless things. The music is the one we chant at the Patriarchate").

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4) Concerning Nicholas of Smyrna: Much of his compositions remained mathimata and were never used in churches in services (personal communication of Matthaios Andreou, student of Vamvoudakis).

Composers/chantors were very careful in introducing new music in the service, however, from the standpoint of teaching, they did not shy from melodies that incorporated elements of Ottoman music/rhythms.

Consider again how much of all this repertory was actually used in churches up until the 1970s. And even today, how many times does one hear Nicholas of Smyrna Cherubic hymns in church practice?
I guess there is no point in doubting that Nikolaos and his successor Misailidis would use Nikolaos' books at the analogion. Now many of Nikolaos' compositions are indeed long mathemata, but others are not and in any case all his compositions bear his distinct style. And when talking about Nikolaos' work, I didn't mean only his Liturgy volume, as you perhaps thought, but also his other books. As far as who would chant what, e.g. every year in Patras the late Metropolitan Nikodimos would use many compositions from Nikolaos' books for Doxastika and Idiomela, especially during the Holy Week period. About Nikolaos' papadic Liturgy pieces: these were chanted where

1) circumstances would allow it (enough time);
2) students of Nikolaos were active;
3) papadic melos hasn't degenerated into improvisation, or displaced completely in favour of other compositions as in the case of the koinonika.

Up until some time ago Athos was such a place, but I guess there too Nikolaos' compositions are destined to eventually disappear.

P.S. When Vamvoudakis included in his book polyphonic pieces (in Byzantine notation) by Bortnyanski, did he do it for training purposes? Or when Andreou chanted Sakellaridis in Canada? The chanters don't live in lab conditions, they adapt or get influenced by the environment, and what was the musical aesthetics of Smyrni is attested by numerous early 20th c. recordings. And that that did influence the Smyrni yphos is something that already Boudouris sensed.
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  #22  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 03:54
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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I believe the discussion is digressing from the original question/thesis.

-In spite of manuscripts of the 18th century that list makam terms;
-in spite of compositions listed as a "makam xxx" that exist in books/compilation

-in spite of the use of makam theory by teachers to *explain* to SOME students aspects of *theory*:

The practice at the analogia of old-time was restricted to "classical" books and music (my use of the term "classic" refers to the books and music sanctioned by the Ecumenical patriarchate).

I challenge anyone to demonstrate that among ALL classic compositions (see my definition above), makam elements (that is formulae, cadences, phrases, passages that are not "classic" formulae etc) are >5% of the entire corpus...

Concerning the other points about local traditions and the degree to which they continued and by who, and if and when they have become (or not) mainstream at the analogion (e.g. Nikolaos of Smyrna/Misail Misailidis), those are separate questions and theses for which separate threads should be opened.


NG

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Nikolaos Giannoukakis : 22-05-14 στις 04:06.
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  #23  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 13:42
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I don't have the privilege to own any copies of Balasios's autographs, but I' ve seen mss written by some of his students. In this particular case of melos, the starting martiria is descriptive, something like "πλ α', ε'φωνος φθορικός" and sometimes there are some more details like "λέγεται πέντε επάνω εις το μέλος του νανά". And yes, the term "ατζέμ" is found in more recent mss.
I attach samples from three different mss. In two of them the scribes take a considerable effort to explain which mode the doxology is written in. In the third one the scribe doesn't even bother to use the nana fthora (he didn't understand the original composition?).
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Τύπος Αρχείου: jpg ms grecesc 17474_242.jpg (102,0 KB, 16 εμφανίσεις)
Τύπος Αρχείου: jpg ms grecesc 27820_292.jpg (182,1 KB, 14 εμφανίσεις)
Τύπος Αρχείου: png Screen Shot 2014-05-22 at 13.35.20.png (507,4 KB, 12 εμφανίσεις)
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  #24  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 14:29
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I attach samples from three different mss. In two of them the scribes take a considerable effort to explain which mode the doxology is written in. In the third one the scribe doesn't even bother to use the nana fthora (he didn't understand the original composition?).
Exactly the way I' ve seen it too. I remember ιn some cases the use of νενανώ instead of νανά above Ζω, both showing the same thing, a semitone above Kε (Ζω ύφεσις). (This is a known case of διπλοπαραλλαγή: β' ήχος από παραλλαγής, γ' από μέλους).

As for the third sample, there could be a more simple explanation. Transcribers some times forget things. It's not unusual. We shouldn't always look for a deeper reason for everything we see in a ms. The sure thing is he is transcribing from an different source. You can see the use of υπορροή over the word φώς, while the other mss have the more analysed script with 4 απόστροφοι.
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  #25  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 16:16
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Another question I want to ask is: was Barys Heptaphonos an ecclesiastic mode in Balasios' times, or he was the first one to compose a Doxology in it?
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  #26  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 16:35
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Another question I want to ask is: was Barys Heptaphonos an ecclesiastic mode in Balasios' times, or he was the first one to compose a Doxology in it?
Very accurate question, indeed. I was planning to mention that. No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic. It was the first time that Ζω' would be used as an arctic tone.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Deacon : 22-05-14 στις 20:54.
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  #27  
Παλιά 22-05-14, 23:25
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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The statement: "No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic."

Can you please substantiate the underlined elements in your thesis?

1) Varys was ALWAYS a mode...behaviour
2) Eptaphonos...INNOVATION....of Balasios"
3) CLEARLY influenced by makam evic.

The argument you are making, especially (3) is quite strong without any evidence that it HAD to be makam evic that CLEARLY influenced Balasios in this specific composition.

Heptaphonic Varys was around before this composition. Do a little homework and you will see that it is not necessarily "makam-influenced"...

NG
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Παλιά 22-05-14, 23:28
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I promise to do my homework...
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  #29  
Παλιά 23-05-14, 10:34
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Very accurate question, indeed. I was planning to mention that. No, Barys was always a mode with very strict behaviour. Heptaphonos is another innovation of Balasios clearly influenced by makam evic. It was the first time that Ζω' would be used as an arctic tone.
I want to clarify some points.

The strict behaviour of Barys is well known in the Byzantine period. Gabriel Hieromonachos (15th century) is absolute: Ὁ δὲ πλάγιος τοῦ δευτέρου καὶ ὁ βαρὺς κοινωνοῦσιν ἀλλήλοις κατὰ τὸ μὴ ποιεῖν διπλασμόν᾿ μέχρι τῶν ἑπτὰ φωνῶν οὗτοι οὐ προέρχονται. [...] ὁ δὲ βαρὺς [καταλέγει] τέσσαρας καὶ πέντε. This is clearly observed in various mss of that time.

"Heptaphonic" (this term differs from the term "heptaphonos") behaviour starts to be observed almost two centuries later, and not inside the main corpus of a music piece, but usually inside a "κράτημα". I can't recall any example of this behaviour earlier than the time Αρσένιος ο μικρός (1st half of 17th century) composed his well known κρατήματα, and especially the one in πρωτόβαρυς mode. There, we can see a heptaphonic behaviour in the second half of the melos' length. It's not strange at all that this team of kratemata were characterized as "συνθέματα εκ των έξω" (I.M. Leimonos, ms 238) and were given external names like σύριγγα or μουσχάλι (that's why I suggested that "the origins of this music "transaction" can be traced back to the half of 17th century" in an earlier post)

Despite the fact that "άνω Ζω" was starting to shyly take its place in our music as a "δεσπόζων φθόγγος" in secondary parts of various μέλη (κρατήματα etc) it was not before the composision of Balasios's doxologia that earned its place as a starting "φθόγγος" of an entire melos. And why is that? Because, it was "forbidden" to start a melos outside the strictly specified range of mode base tones (from Ζω to Κε). This is why Balasios gives the martiria of Ζω as an "αρκτική μαρτυρία" (the "legal" base of Barys) but starts all verses from Ζω' with a diplasmos. Only in eastern music Ζω' was used as a base note at that time. It was the base of makam evic, which is a basic (main) makam in Turkish-Arabic music.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Deacon : 23-05-14 στις 10:42.
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  #30  
Παλιά 23-05-14, 11:40
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Some more valuable samples:


I can't seem to find Balasios's doxologia with the term "ατζέμ" right now. Hope I haven't lost anything...

Bereketis Koinonikon is transcribed in the New Method by Hourmouzios. The term "ατζέμ" is found in the start of the Cheroubikon of "πλ α' πεντάφωνος" too.

The first two samples are taken from an Apostolos Konstas ms. The similarity between his doxologia and Balasios's one is obvious, especially in the starting phrases.
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Τύπος Αρχείου: jpg IMGP8276.JPG (2,23 MB, 9 εμφανίσεις)
Τύπος Αρχείου: jpg Koinonika Mperekete fyllon 009a.jpg (326,6 KB, 11 εμφανίσεις)

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Deacon : 23-05-14 στις 11:46.
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