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Επιστροφή   Psaltologion (Ψαλτολόγιον) > Discussions in English > Byzantine Music and External Music

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Παλιά 17-03-14, 22:55
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Προεπιλογή The Psaltic Art and influences upon it from Turkish music

Good afternoon to all,

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of any books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant, especially before and after 1453. I remember coming across a brief paragraph from Richard Barrett's blog that mentions a sentiment regarding Byantine chant I have heard echoed in some circles - essentially, that

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the received tradition of Byzantine chant itself isn’t “authentically” Byzantine but rather Turkish and Arabic
Mr. Barrett points out that this is, of course, an "an outdated scholarly argument," and rightly so. However, I am interested in doing a little more research in this area, and I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant (and vice versa). I'm particularly interested in topics such as vocal styles and techniques and the use of microtonal intervals, but anything on the subject would be appreciated. :-)

In Christ,
Gabriel

P.S. I am aware of Mr. Barrett's 2010 article on this subject from the Greek Orthodox Theological Review.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη GabrielCremeens : 17-03-14 στις 23:02.
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Παλιά 19-03-14, 02:12
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Gabe,

By virtue of Arvanitis's interview by Ivan Moody, he seems to be someone who is cognizant of these arguments and the evidence refuting them - perhaps his brain would be good to pick.

In Barrett's article in the Greek Theological Review - Lingas's argument that the received tradition does in fact span back centuries is supported by the work of Prof. Troelsgard, (This new consensus is reflected both in the title and individual essays of C. Troelsgård, ed., ByzantineChant: Tradition and Reform, Acts of a Meeting Held at the Danish Institute at Athens, 1993)

Perhaps that's another good place to look - additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.
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Παλιά 19-03-14, 13:25
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The works of Prof. Cenk Guray (Atilim University in Ankara) and his colleague Ali Fuat Aydin are instructive and they clearly demonstrate that the classic Ottoman song including the underlying makam derives from the music of the Rum especially the ecclesiastic tradition.

Scroll to their names to the right of the video screen

http://www.asbmh.pitt.edu/page9/page...17/page17.html

This, straight from musicians of classical Ottoman and Turkish music-

Also, consider that the teachers of renowned Ottoman Turkish musicians were in fact involved in ecclesiastic music (Zacharias and Stavrakis Chanendes and of course Petros Pelloponesios).

As an afternote, this myth has been perpetuated for far too long.

NG
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Παλιά 21-03-14, 20:16
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Something else you may be interested in having a look at is Antonopoulos's Paper for the 2011 Crossroads Proceedings at the Aristotelian University in Thessalonika:

http://crossroads.mus.auth.gr/wp-con...ROCEEDINGS.pdf

beginning on page 153 (169 of the PDF) - specifically about the durability of Chrysaphes's Thesis and how it was part of the scholarship used in defending the continuity of the tradition against those associated with MMB and Sakellarides.

He also notes the proliferation of the Constantinopolitan style of psalmodia in Crete and the Peloponnese following 1453 as a result of, per Chrysanthos, Chrysaphes settling in Mistra and traveling in the region.

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη romanos4 : 21-03-14 στις 23:10.
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Παλιά 02-04-14, 19:46
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο TimGabe1992 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
Good afternoon to all,

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of any books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant, especially before and after 1453. I remember coming across a brief paragraph from Richard Barrett's blog that mentions a sentiment regarding Byantine chant I have heard echoed in some circles - essentially, that



Mr. Barrett points out that this is, of course, an "an outdated scholarly argument," and rightly so. However, I am interested in doing a little more research in this area, and I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant (and vice versa). I'm particularly interested in topics such as vocal styles and techniques and the use of microtonal intervals, but anything on the subject would be appreciated. :-)

In Christ,
Gabriel

P.S. I am aware of Mr. Barrett's 2010 article on this subject from the Greek Orthodox Theological Review.
Even if the received Byzantine chant tradition were Turkish or Arabic (in whatever sense), why would that automatically make it "bad"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygjBoW19N4c
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Παλιά 03-04-14, 16:54
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An attitude grounded in the politics of the time, to be sure.

Consider Gibbon's treatise and how its tenets became the de facto attitude among scholars toward Byzantine and the bias that found its way into University History departments and from there flowed into High School curricula.

"Can anything good come out of Byzantium?"
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Παλιά 04-04-14, 15:04
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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At times, nationalistic tendencies have crept into the manner in which the evolution of historical music is described and this is true for all music associated with folklore and faith. Hyperbole is evident in many historical treatises.

It is important to distinguish the facts from the myths and the biases (any sort of biases).

Concerning the evolution of Byzantine chant it is clear that its musicians carefully distinguished the ecclesiastic from the secular. An examination of the formulae and cadences used in the "Eyterpe" and/or the "Pandora" of Theodore Papaparaschou Phokayes (for example) and a comparison to the cadences and formulae of his exegeses clearly demonstrates the distinctions.

NG

Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το χρήστη Nikolaos Giannoukakis : 04-04-14 στις 15:07.
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Παλιά 06-04-14, 06:26
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο romanos4 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
...additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.
My experience is that Prof. Troelsgard is very generous with his time and resources over e-mail, so yes, I'd second that.

Richard
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Παλιά 07-05-14, 19:28
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Αρχικό μήνυμα απο romanos4 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
Perhaps that's another good place to look - additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.
I obviously cannot express Troelsgard's opinion better than he himself can, but his position can be summarised in two quotes from his book "Byzantine Neumes" (p. 24):

1) "There is literary evidence that the Byzantine chant interacted with Arabo-Persian and Ottoman music cultures during the Byzantine and Postbyzantine periods, but on the other hand it is unlikely that the medieval chant traditions were irreperably broken at any single point".

2) "It is not tenable that the Byzantine chant tradition stayed totally unchanged over the centuries".

Without going into futile Psaltologion-style discussions on what is Byzantine, Arabic, Ottoman or Martian music, let me point out that a number of Greek ecclesiastic music composers borrowed heavily from the secular music. Some of the "gross offenders" are Christodoulos Georgiades Kessanieus, Metropolitan Meletios, Basileios Zagliberinos and Metropolitan Kosmas. And many others, of course.
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Παλιά 08-05-14, 05:58
Nikolaos Giannoukakis Nikolaos Giannoukakis is offline
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Indeed.

However, other than serving as highly-technical "mathimata", the compositions of the aforementioned individuals are not in use at the analogion and were never part of any formative curriculum. To my knowledge, although some of the compositions of the aforementioned have (on occasion) been used in services in the various monasteries of Athos, they are foreign to the tradition of Constantinople and unheard of in the repertory of the psaltae who derive from other parts of Asia Minor.

NG.
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