The Psaltic Art and influences upon it from Turkish music

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Good afternoon to all,

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of any books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant, especially before and after 1453. I remember coming across a brief paragraph from Richard Barrett's blog that mentions a sentiment regarding Byantine chant I have heard echoed in some circles - essentially, that

the received tradition of Byzantine chant itself isn’t “authentically” Byzantine but rather Turkish and Arabic

Mr. Barrett points out that this is, of course, an "an outdated scholarly argument," and rightly so. However, I am interested in doing a little more research in this area, and I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant (and vice versa). I'm particularly interested in topics such as vocal styles and techniques and the use of microtonal intervals, but anything on the subject would be appreciated. :)

In Christ,
Gabriel

P.S. I am aware of Mr. Barrett's 2010 article on this subject from the Greek Orthodox Theological Review.
 
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romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Gabe,

By virtue of Arvanitis's interview by Ivan Moody, he seems to be someone who is cognizant of these arguments and the evidence refuting them - perhaps his brain would be good to pick.

In Barrett's article in the Greek Theological Review - Lingas's argument that the received tradition does in fact span back centuries is supported by the work of Prof. Troelsgard, (This new consensus is reflected both in the title and individual essays of C. Troelsgård, ed., ByzantineChant: Tradition and Reform, Acts of a Meeting Held at the Danish Institute at Athens, 1993)

Perhaps that's another good place to look - additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
The works of Prof. Cenk Guray (Atilim University in Ankara) and his colleague Ali Fuat Aydin are instructive and they clearly demonstrate that the classic Ottoman song including the underlying makam derives from the music of the Rum especially the ecclesiastic tradition.

Scroll to their names to the right of the video screen

http://www.asbmh.pitt.edu/page9/page13/page17/page17.html

This, straight from musicians of classical Ottoman and Turkish music-

Also, consider that the teachers of renowned Ottoman Turkish musicians were in fact involved in ecclesiastic music (Zacharias and Stavrakis Chanendes and of course Petros Pelloponesios).

As an afternote, this myth has been perpetuated for far too long.

NG
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Something else you may be interested in having a look at is Antonopoulos's Paper for the 2011 Crossroads Proceedings at the Aristotelian University in Thessalonika:

http://crossroads.mus.auth.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CROSSROADS_PROCEEDINGS.pdf

beginning on page 153 (169 of the PDF) - specifically about the durability of Chrysaphes's Thesis and how it was part of the scholarship used in defending the continuity of the tradition against those associated with MMB and Sakellarides.

He also notes the proliferation of the Constantinopolitan style of psalmodia in Crete and the Peloponnese following 1453 as a result of, per Chrysanthos, Chrysaphes settling in Mistra and traveling in the region.
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Good afternoon to all,

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of any books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant, especially before and after 1453. I remember coming across a brief paragraph from Richard Barrett's blog that mentions a sentiment regarding Byantine chant I have heard echoed in some circles - essentially, that



Mr. Barrett points out that this is, of course, an "an outdated scholarly argument," and rightly so. However, I am interested in doing a little more research in this area, and I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of books or articles that address the question of the influence of Turkish music upon Byzantine chant (and vice versa). I'm particularly interested in topics such as vocal styles and techniques and the use of microtonal intervals, but anything on the subject would be appreciated. :)

In Christ,
Gabriel

P.S. I am aware of Mr. Barrett's 2010 article on this subject from the Greek Orthodox Theological Review.

Even if the received Byzantine chant tradition were Turkish or Arabic (in whatever sense), why would that automatically make it "bad"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygjBoW19N4c
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
An attitude grounded in the politics of the time, to be sure.

Consider Gibbon's treatise and how its tenets became the de facto attitude among scholars toward Byzantine and the bias that found its way into University History departments and from there flowed into High School curricula.

"Can anything good come out of Byzantium?"
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
At times, nationalistic tendencies have crept into the manner in which the evolution of historical music is described and this is true for all music associated with folklore and faith. Hyperbole is evident in many historical treatises.

It is important to distinguish the facts from the myths and the biases (any sort of biases).

Concerning the evolution of Byzantine chant it is clear that its musicians carefully distinguished the ecclesiastic from the secular. An examination of the formulae and cadences used in the "Eyterpe" and/or the "Pandora" of Theodore Papaparaschou Phokayes (for example) and a comparison to the cadences and formulae of his exegeses clearly demonstrates the distinctions.

NG
 
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RichardRBarrett

Μέλος
...additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.

My experience is that Prof. Troelsgard is very generous with his time and resources over e-mail, so yes, I'd second that.

Richard
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Perhaps that's another good place to look - additionally, I would be hopeful Troelsgard (who I met recently and seems like a very good person) would be open to answering an e-mail from you.

I obviously cannot express Troelsgard's opinion better than he himself can, but his position can be summarised in two quotes from his book "Byzantine Neumes" (p. 24):

1) "There is literary evidence that the Byzantine chant interacted with Arabo-Persian and Ottoman music cultures during the Byzantine and Postbyzantine periods, but on the other hand it is unlikely that the medieval chant traditions were irreperably broken at any single point".

2) "It is not tenable that the Byzantine chant tradition stayed totally unchanged over the centuries".

Without going into futile Psaltologion-style discussions on what is Byzantine, Arabic, Ottoman or Martian music, let me point out that a number of Greek ecclesiastic music composers borrowed heavily from the secular music. Some of the "gross offenders" are Christodoulos Georgiades Kessanieus, Metropolitan Meletios, Basileios Zagliberinos and Metropolitan Kosmas. And many others, of course.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Indeed.

However, other than serving as highly-technical "mathimata", the compositions of the aforementioned individuals are not in use at the analogion and were never part of any formative curriculum. To my knowledge, although some of the compositions of the aforementioned have (on occasion) been used in services in the various monasteries of Athos, they are foreign to the tradition of Constantinople and unheard of in the repertory of the psaltae who derive from other parts of Asia Minor.

NG.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
The works of Prof. Cenk Guray (Atilim University in Ankara) and his colleague Ali Fuat Aydin are instructive and they clearly demonstrate that the classic Ottoman song including the underlying makam derives from the music of the Rum especially the ecclesiastic tradition.

Scroll to their names to the right of the video screen

http://www.asbmh.pitt.edu/page9/page13/page17/page17.html

This, straight from musicians of classical Ottoman and Turkish music-

Also, consider that the teachers of renowned Ottoman Turkish musicians were in fact involved in ecclesiastic music (Zacharias and Stavrakis Chanendes and of course Petros Pelloponesios).

As an afternote, this myth has been perpetuated for far too long.

NG

That would make perfect sense since the Ottomans and Muslims in general have had the habit of plagiarizing everything else from Orthodox and Byzantine culture (from architecture, to artwork, to in this case, music).

I agree with NG here -that quacking canard needs to be silenced.

JPP
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
What's the definition of the term "influence"? "Δοξολογία Μπαλασίου είς ήχον πλ α', ατζέμ" is a clear influence, the way I see it.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
The works of Prof. Cenk Guray (Atilim University in Ankara) and his colleague Ali Fuat Aydin are instructive and they clearly demonstrate that the classic Ottoman song including the underlying makam derives from the music of the Rum especially the ecclesiastic tradition.

Scroll to their names to the right of the video screen

http://www.asbmh.pitt.edu/page9/page13/page17/page17.html

This, straight from musicians of classical Ottoman and Turkish music-

Also, consider that the teachers of renowned Ottoman Turkish musicians were in fact involved in ecclesiastic music (Zacharias and Stavrakis Chanendes and of course Petros Pelloponesios).

As an afternote, this myth has been perpetuated for far too long.

NG

I listened to that presentation. I'm always weary of grand theories being presented in a 20 min. talk. I had a difficulty grasping what the main point of the talk was. It started with commonplace phrases like that the roots of the Makam system go back 5000 years ago in Mesopotamia and that the Ottoman music underwent influences of the Arabo-Persian music and Byzantine music (here meaning music of the multicultural society inhabiting Asia Minor). Then it took the case of three Greek musicians, Halatzoglou, Kyrillos Marmarinos and Kiltzanidis, and although I did pick up something from that part of the talk (e.g. that Halatzoglou seems to have utilised Dimitri Cantemir's, Kucuk Artin's and Nayi Osman Dede's works, etc.), this is where I got lost.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Indeed.

However, other than serving as highly-technical "mathimata", the compositions of the aforementioned individuals are not in use at the analogion and were never part of any formative curriculum. To my knowledge, although some of the compositions of the aforementioned have (on occasion) been used in services in the various monasteries of Athos, they are foreign to the tradition of Constantinople and unheard of in the repertory of the psaltae who derive from other parts of Asia Minor.

NG.

Almost all Axion estin compositions by these composers are included in Mousikos Thisavros and Kalliphonos Aidon published by Nektarios the Monk, which are standard Athonite music books for the Divine Liturgy. And then we should not forget that the books by Nikolaos Protopsaltis of Smyrni, which most certainly were "practical" publications, never got the recognition of the Patriarchate (of course it's another matter how Meletios, who was a bishop, got it for his own book). We cannot judge by today's repertory to conclude what was the repertory of the Constantinopolitan chanters in the 19th c. One could perhaps not without some justification argue that the older repertory got displaced by newer compositions by Kamarados, Hatziathanasiou, Palasis, Pringos, Stanitsas etc. (which also leads to a natural question in what respect the highly technical Liturgy compositions of these composers, such as Leitourgika and Axion esti, differ from those of their predecessors in the 19th c.).
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
One should not limit the definition of the term "influence" to just the presence of external "θέσεις" inside various "mathimata" of new Papadike. The influence is of another kind, (more fundamental, I think) and has to do with the way our musicians started to gradually absorb some basic principals of eastern music, and more specifically, the way Ottoman musicians understood the arrangement of tones and music scales. According to my observations, the origins of this music "transaction" can be traced back to the half of 17th century.
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
One should not limit the definition of the term "influence" to just the presence of external "θέσεις" inside various "mathimata" of new Papadike. The influence is of another kind, (more fundamental, I think) and has to do with the way our musicians started to gradually absorb some basic principals of eastern music, and more specifically, the way Ottoman musicians understood the arrangement of tones and music scales. According to my observations, the origins of this music "transaction" can be traced back to the half of 17th century.

This is an interesting bit of information. I wonder whether Apostolos Konstas and Dionysios Foteinos, who make overwhelming use of makam terminology, e.g. to the point that Foteinos labels his Koinonikon of the Presentation of the Theotokos to the Temple, written in Legetos (certainly not an unknown mode), Segah, and marks its introductory part with the word "taksimi" (both omitted in the typed version, but present in the ms it was typed from), really thought directly in terms of makams when composing.
 

Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
Legetos was an unknown mode for slow Papadika "μέλη". Its earlier use in Doxologiai (late 17th century) had more connection with the Heirmologion of that time (although it's obvious that there is a tension to use this mode "differently").

Beside this, a spherical review of this mode through the course of our music history might reveal, at some point in the future, a totally different structure when it comes to intervals, than the one we are familiar with (I have some things to say about that, but the time is not appropriate).

And lets not forget that legetos was never an autonomous mode but a "μέσος" mode, always comprehended as an agia dependent mode. The type of legetos that was used to compose the mathimata mentioned here, is an autonomous mode with softer intervals that has more to do with Segah (which is also a basic makam) than with agia, the mode that gives birth to our ecclesiastical legetos.
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Without diluting the thread, I would like to develop the following comments made earlier:

1) "Δοξολογία Μπαλασίου είς ήχον πλ α', ατζέμ".

I highly doubt that Balasios himself gave his composition the phrase atzem. This probably came from a vertical transcriber of his manuscript. Other examples include classic compositions which later chantors labeled using makam terms. Nileas Kamarados (for example) never labeled his chromatic-diatonic Axion Estin "Nehavent". Yet, chantors in the 50s labeled the same composition "Nehavent" or even "Hitzaskiar Kiourdi". One needs to see the original manuscripts....


2) "We cannot judge by today's repertory to conclude what was the repertory of the Constantinopolitan chanters in the 19th c.".

Well, if you did not have the opportunity to speak with the psaltae of old time, this might be a potential statement that one could propose. The psaltae of old-time are very clear about what they were taught and what they saw "in action" at the analogion in the late 1800s, early 1900s and that is nothing more than the classical music. The Patriarchal Church was a different matter altogether and even more conservative and strict...The Axion Estin, and Kalophonic hymn material in Nektarios is largely a compilation of "mathimata", and even the monasteries of Athos did not use them all (my personal discussions with the late-blessed Fr. Panaretos of Philotheou).

3) "that the older repertory got displaced by newer compositions by Kamarados, Hatziathanasiou, Palasis, Pringos, Stanitsas etc.".

This is true. But this phenomenon became de riguer in Athens largely. Constantinopolitan churches were more conservative.

4) Concerning Nicholas of Smyrna: Much of his compositions remained mathimata and were never used in churches in services (personal communication of Matthaios Andreou, student of Vamvoudakis).

Composers/chantors were very careful in introducing new music in the service, however, from the standpoint of teaching, they did not shy from melodies that incorporated elements of Ottoman music/rhythms.

Consider again how much of all this repertory was actually used in churches up until the 1970s. And even today, how many times does one hear Nicholas of Smyrna Cherubic hymns in church practice?

NG
 

Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Here is another little example from an autograph ms of Dionysios Foteinos (from the preface to the publication of his Anastasimatarion). He labels his Polyeleos in Legetos Segah and in the margin lists Makams which he used in modulations.

I wonder if its Makam-based character becomes recognisable upon transcription into the New Method, or one would think it is just a skilful Byzantine melos.
 

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Deacon

Παλαιό Μέλος
1) "Δοξολογία Μπαλασίου είς ήχον πλ α', ατζέμ".

I highly doubt that Balasios himself gave his composition the phrase atzem. This probably came from a vertical transcriber of his manuscript.

I highly doubt that myself. I don't have the privilege to own any copies of Balasios's autographs, but I' ve seen mss written by some of his students. In this particular case of melos, the starting martiria is descriptive, something like "πλ α', ε'φωνος φθορικός" and sometimes there are some more details like "λέγεται πέντε επάνω εις το μέλος του νανά". And yes, the term "ατζέμ" is found in more recent mss. So what? That doesn't change facts. The structure of this doxologia is not a Balasios's ground-breaking conception, despite the fact that with this composition it was probably the first time that "Ζω ύφεσις" was used as a starting base of an ecclesiastical melos. It's a melos that consists of heirmological theseis, but when it comes to music scale and melodic "idea", it is clearly based on an external makam, that is accurately defined as "ατζέμ". Are we going to get stuck in "names" and "labels"?

In my eyes, the trancriber who added the term "ατζέμ" was not a "traitor". He was just being honest...
 
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