December 2015 - Orthodox Observer

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
The most recent Orthodox Observer http://www.goarch.org/news/observer/2015-12-orthodoxobserver/at_download/issuePDF has provided perhaps both reasons to cheer and reasons to jeer:

1) Page 10 provides an advertisement for a bilingual publication of Violakis's Typikon, published by the Metropolis of Denver Church Music Federation. This should prove hopefully useful in terms of the education of those who wish to seriously pursue chanting

2) Page 23 "The Oloi Mazi Committee":

by Maria Keritsis
NEW YORK – The “Oloi Mazi” (pro- nounced Olee MazEE) team of the Na- tional Forum of Greek Orthodox Church Musicians met at Archdiocese headquar- ters Nov. 16–18 to continue development of music for the upcoming standard Greek and English texts for the Divine Liturgy.

This was one of a series of meetings that the team has held during the past 10 years. The current priority is to prepare the Greek/English musical arrangements for a new congregational hymnal for par- ish use. Once the Archdiocese releases the text for the Divine Liturgy, the team will provide the music for the congrega- tional hymnal as well as a choral version for choirs.

During the three-day meeting, the “Oloi Mazi” (Greek for “all together”) team met with Archbishop Demetrios to review the work of the committee. His Eminence provided wisdom and further direction to the team members. Later that afternoon, Bishop Sebastian met with the team for an update on the project and advised them on the work and timelines of the Holy Synod regarding the translations. Once the Holy Synod releases the Divine Liturgy, the hymnal will be ready to go to press.

Metropolitan Methodios, the liaison with the Holy Synod, has asked that tradi- tional melodies be used. The new hymnal will replace the green book produced by Ernie Villas years ago and that is still used in many parishes today. The team will continue its work to set to music the Apolytikia, Kontakia and other hymns as the Holy Synod approves the text.
When the congregational hymnal is completed, the National Forum will use the team to continue work to revise the hymns of the Orthodox Church instruc- tional series, which will also include the new English texts and music. The Forum is coordinating this project with Dr. Anton Vrame, director of Religious Education, for use in parish religious education programs.

Oloi Mazi team members include Maria Keritsis, National Forum chairman; Dr. Vicki Pappas, committee chairman; Fr. Chrysostomos Gilbert of New York, Dr. Tikey Zes of San Jose Calif;, Dr. Nick Maragos of Rochester, Minn; Kevin Law- rence of Winston-Salem, N.C.; and Nancy Takis of Lansing, Mich. Stan Takis of Lan- sing serves as scribe for the team and Dr. Grammenos Karanos of Holy Cross serves as consultant. Metropolitan Methodios, liaison for the National Forum to the Holy Synod, has been providing valuable sup- port and guidance.
The next “Oloi Mazi” team meeting will be in Boston in early 2016. [End]

I pray that the consultation of Dr. Karanos will bear fruit for a project whose other members are either severely lacking or at best have varying abilities to properly set texts to music.
 
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apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
I pray that the consultation of Dr. Karanos will bear fruit for a project whose other members are either severely lacking or at best have varying abilities to properly set texts to music properly.

Yes, let's pray very hard about this... Because it's projects like this that have the potential to destroy our received hymnological tradition. The beginning of the end of "congregational singing" began as far back as the second century when St. Ignatius designated antiphonal responses and two choroi. By the time of the 6th Ecumenical Synod, congregational singing had all but disappeared. (Of course, that's a discussion for a different time.) Why the Archdiocese (via it's "official musical arm" organization) is trying to resurrect this is beyond me. No traditional chanter worth his salt is going to chant the simplified melodies that the "Oloi Mazoi" committee is trying to dictate.

Apostolos
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
Yes, let's pray very hard about this... Because it's projects like this that have the potential to destroy our received hymnological tradition. The beginning of the end of "congregational singing" began as far back as the second century when St. Ignatius designated antiphonal responses and two choroi. By the time of the 6th Ecumenical Synod, congregational singing had all but disappeared. (Of course, that's a discussion for a different time.) Why the Archdiocese (via it's "official musical arm" organization) is trying to resurrect this is beyond me. No traditional chanter worth his salt is going to chant the simplified melodies that the "Oloi Mazoi" committee is trying to dictate.

Apostolos

Thank you Apostolos. Bravo. I have seen this in small sectors of my own Old Calendarist jurisdiction. If someone wants to sing along undistracting with the established melody of the psaltis or the psaltic choir, far from me to stop them --I might even recruit them, but while this psaltis may or may not be worth his salt, as you say, I do resist notions such as this, but this IS America, where ignorance of the faithful is easily capitalized on. It is the people who push projects like this that are saying that the Received Tradition IS the problem, and many of the names mentioned on the committee sound VERY familiar in pushing this particular viewpoint.

I believe that the Council of Laodecia established the chanting as the bailywick of the tonsured psaltis. Oui? No?

John Peter Presson
 
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apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
I do resist notions such as this, but this IS America, where ignorance of the faithful is easily capitalized on. It is the people who push projects like this that are saying that the Received Tradition IS the problem, and many of the names mentioned on the committee sound VERY familiar in pushing this particular viewpoint.

Well, the "This IS America" I have heard time and time again. And my answer is, "So what?" Does that mean that the tradition is changed? This is America... then let's "update" the vestments of the priest (you know... "American style"). Or how about we hire some impressionist or even abstract artists to paint "updated" icons in our churches (again... "American style"). I don't buy into the "This is America" argument.

And I'm not sure that "the people" alone are pushing these types of projects, although they are probably the catalyst that encourages our higher-ups to cater to them. Let's please ALL of the people! Let's make everything easy to sing along to! THAT'S how people pray!

(Insert appropriate bovine-waste word here.)

The problem is that the Archdiocese, as a whole, MISSED THE BOAT. They should have saturated our churches from the beginning with competent psaltai from Greece and Constantinople so that our musical tradition wouldn't be lost and watered-down and feel-good projects like "Oloi Mazi" wouldn't be necessary. Now, in today's day and age, instead of trying to play catch-up (which is, at least, an attempt at preservation), we encourage the simplification and modification of melodies.

I believe that the Council of Laodecia established the chanting as the bailywick of the tonsured psaltis. Oui? No?

Absolutely! Canon XV says, "Περὶ τοῦ μὴ δεῖν πλὴν τῶν κανονικῶν ψαλτῶν, τῶν ἐπὶ τὸν ἄμβωνα ἀναβαινόντων, καὶ ἀπὸ διφθέρας ψαλλόντων, ἑτέρους τινὰς ψάλλειν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ." ("No others shall sing in the Church, save only the canonical singers, who go up into the ambo and sing from a book."). Basically, this Canon hinders just anyone who wants to chant in the church, except only the canonical psaltai (i.e. those that are tonsured and numbered in each church). They ascend the "amvon" and chant from paper or membranes (i.e. the original manuscripts which were on animal skins).

Apostolos
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
The most difficult thing is getting behavior to change in the parishes. If there has been a predilection toward congregational singing in a given parish and the will/personalities to implement it then this could be helpful. I expect nothing to change at my parish in practice.

These projects are at best useful for pieces of the liturgy that rarely, if ever, should change. Personally, I am upset when parishioners don't know the troparion of their own parish. At worst it risks destroying the rich variety and tradition of Byzantine music. The same cherubic hymn every week? The same anaphora and koinonikon? Why not at least learn 8, instead of this milquetoast thing that calls itself 'traditional'?

Over 10 years ago, at I believe was an Axion Estin conference, Fr. Dedes or Dr. Lingas asked at least one member of the aforementioned committee why they haven't adopted a modal model, for which no answer was given, but just silence. Video of such is available. Why not at least an appreciation of the modes and the idea that, yeah, some of this stuff requires more training and whose beginning is a desire to praise God in song, but certainly not the only prerequisite?

What's unfortunate is that while our Bishops and Clergy, especially today, quietly clamor for better music and better chanting, they outwardly enable such projects as this that continue to perpetuate myths about ideal ways to conduct the liturgy, and worse, perpetuate the 'narrative of decline' that brought about the today's choir repertoire, and negative attitudes about chanting.

In my parish on 'Church Music Sunday', leaders of the choir took a manikin, dressed it in a choir robe and put a tiara and sash on it so as to symbolize the Miss America who sings in her Greek Orthodox Church choir. While such things make my skin crawl, I smile and say nothing.

This project, I believe, is a way for the Church music federation to stay relevant when its membership continues to decline.

Here is an excerpt from the Spring 2015 newsletter from the SF Metropolis Federation, referencing a meeting of all of the Federation presidents:

"We discussed the music our choirs sing during the Liturgy and the music sung at Holy Cross Seminary, which was enlightening. While at Holy Cross, seminarians experience a deep bond through chant along with their education. But, unfortunately, some seminarians are not fully prepared to meet the needs of their parish once ordained and assigned. Perhaps more business training would help with the everyday needs and better communication training to develop a working relationship with their chanter(s) and choir director. Life is very different on the outside. This is a concern in every Metropolis, along with our aging choir members and lack of new younger members."

I think you can read several things into that statement - but the reality that a "deep bond through chant" is indeed something we all share. Rather than a desire to understand that there might be something to this 'chant thing' the reaction seems to be one of fear.
 
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saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
Well, the "This IS America" I have heard time and time again. And my answer is, "So what?" Does that mean that the tradition is changed? This is America... then let's "update" the vestments of the priest (you know... "American style"). Or how about we hire some impressionist or even abstract artists to paint "updated" icons in our churches (again... "American style"). I don't buy into the "This is America" argument.

I was not offering this as an excuse, but with a certain barbed. It is an excuse offered, particularly by those in authority to excuse. My current diocesan hierarch seem to be operating in the past when Byzantine music was particularly unavailable in English, and offered a pastiche of music traditions with a decided Slavic preference as an acceptable alternative to learning Byzantine music during a period, we all when instruction or music scores were a rare commodity. The "This is America" gets trotted out a lot. I am particularly troubled by this because our new hierarch (Old Cal. can you believe it?) is wanting to be seen as "moderate", and seems to offer this flawed reasoning, along with the "…we think Byzantine music is a dying art." to which my question was "dying or being deliberately killed".

And I'm not sure that "the people" alone are pushing these types of projects, although they are probably the catalyst that encourages our higher-ups to cater to them. Let's please ALL of the people! Let's make everything easy to sing along to! THAT'S how people pray!

(Insert appropriate bovine-waste word here.)

I don't think it IS "the people" that is pushing this. Most are ignorant in this country. Many seem indifferent to tepidly supportive of whatever the "authority" propagates as traditional, which seems to be where any progress gets hung up. Ignorance is a highly valued commodity in Church life, particularly by the reform-minded who want to "grease the skids" -I am never entirely sure how far up the food chain this goes.



The problem is that the Archdiocese, as a whole, MISSED THE BOAT. They should have saturated our churches from the beginning with competent psaltai from Greece and Constantinople so that our musical tradition wouldn't be lost and watered-down and feel-good projects like "Oloi Mazi" wouldn't be necessary. Now, in today's day and age, instead of trying to play catch-up (which is, at least, an attempt at preservation), we encourage the simplification and modification of melodies.

I've seen this all before. Much of what is sold in America is sold to the masses "watered down" and "feel good". It's sold with a vague appeal to the received practice being corruption and "bad for the Church". Most people's sense of tradition is pretty myopic.

Absolutely! Canon XV says, "Περὶ τοῦ μὴ δεῖν πλὴν τῶν κανονικῶν ψαλτῶν, τῶν ἐπὶ τὸν ἄμβωνα ἀναβαινόντων, καὶ ἀπὸ διφθέρας ψαλλόντων, ἑτέρους τινὰς ψάλλειν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ." ("No others shall sing in the Church, save only the canonical singers, who go up into the ambo and sing from a book."). Basically, this Canon hinders just anyone who wants to chant in the church, except only the canonical psaltai (i.e. those that are tonsured and numbered in each church). They ascend the "amvon" and chant from paper or membranes (i.e. the original manuscripts which were on animal skins).

Apostolos

I seem to remember hearing that Kyr Asteris almost laid an egg during Pat. Bartholomew's visit when he saw the deviant practices that were allowed into the singing a la mixed choirs, organs etc. (I believe it was one of the Emperors that made a barbed remark about the west that they took an instrument -the organ -the instrument of hippodrome, and introduced it into the Church).

JPP
 
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apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
I seem to remember hearing that Kyr Asteris almost laid an egg during Pat. Bartholomew's visit when he saw the deviant practices that were allowed into the singing a la mixed choirs, organs etc. (I believe it was one of the Emperors that made a barbed remark about the west that they took an instrument -the organ -the instrument of hippodrome, and introduced it into the Church).

When His All-Holiness came to the U.S. back in 1997 and served Divine Liturgy in Madison Square Garden, I stood next to him as his Domestikos and there were two other seminarians there holding ison. (The left "analogion" had a 40-voice chorus of chanters led by Dimitris Fousteris, which made the whole thing seem a bit out of balance, but Asteris did not want any more people with him.) When the great 400-voice western choir cut him off at the Doxology, he was - to use the vernacular - pissed. I mean REALLY pissed. He leaned over to me and asked, "How is it that they allow these things? The agreement was that we would chant the entire Orthros and this choir would chant the Liturgy. The Orthros, however, is NOT over yet! And it doesn't end until the final hymn after the Doxology." I just shook my head and told him, "Arxonta, this is a sad state of affairs in this country regarding our hymnology. There is a lot of ignorance and the hierarchy is afraid to support traditional Byzantine chant precisely because of those 400 voices up there. The choir organization has a lot of power." He shook his head and we exchanged several other comments between us, as poor Archbishop Spyridon looked over at us from the makeshift bishop's throne (and he KNEW what we were talking about). After we went into the "Altar" (i.e. that area behind the iconostasion set up in the Garden), Asteris and I further discussed what was going on and I informed him about a lot of things. I asked him if it was possible for him (as the Archon Protopsalti of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) to express his concern to the Patriarch and propose SOME kind of encyclical or mandate or something from the Phanar to curtail this activity. He told me he would certainly have a talk with the Patriarch about this.

By the way, you can watch the whole Liturgy HERE. Pay close attention to the director of the 400-voice choir, who at times looked like she was going to jump right off the balcony!!

A.
 

romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος

Conditions are getting worst for the chant in the US.
I hope that Mr. Karanos' participation may influence the project to the right traditional way, but I 'm very pessimistic about it.

I'm not disagreeing with you but how specifically are conditions getting worse? From what I observe, the same people continue to propagate the Greek-American choir repertoire with dwindling numbers when younger folks and seminarians, both male and female, are chanting with joy and vigor.

Of course this is a big country so I can't see everything so curious to know your thoughts.

R.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
From what I observe, the same people continue to propagate the Greek-American choir repertoire with dwindling numbers when younger folks and seminarians, both male and female, are chanting with joy and vigor.

Success really depends on how strongly the local priest and bishop are willing to put behind it, and are willing to weather a storm of kvetching parishioners. Many a valiant effort seems to rise or fall on what the clergy see as the greater "pastoral need", right or wrong. My job as protopsaltis of my diocese is to vie for their attention to keep necessity of proper Ψαλτικη before their eyes. Not always easy and will probably be the death of me.

JPP
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
The most recent Orthodox Observer http://www.goarch.org/news/observer/2015-12-orthodoxobserver/at_download/issuePDF has provided perhaps both reasons to cheer and reasons to jeer:

1) Page 10 provides an advertisement for a bilingual publication of Violakis's Typikon, published by the Metropolis of Denver Church Music Federation. This should prove hopefully useful in terms of the education of those who wish to seriously pursue chanting

2) Page 23 "The Oloi Mazi Committee":

by Maria Keritsis
NEW YORK – The “Oloi Mazi” (pro- nounced Olee MazEE) team of the Na- tional Forum of Greek Orthodox Church Musicians met at Archdiocese headquar- ters Nov. 16–18 to continue development of music for the upcoming standard Greek and English texts for the Divine Liturgy.

This was one of a series of meetings that the team has held during the past 10 years. The current priority is to prepare the Greek/English musical arrangements for a new congregational hymnal for par- ish use. Once the Archdiocese releases the text for the Divine Liturgy, the team will provide the music for the congrega- tional hymnal as well as a choral version for choirs.

During the three-day meeting, the “Oloi Mazi” (Greek for “all together”) team met with Archbishop Demetrios to review the work of the committee. His Eminence provided wisdom and further direction to the team members. Later that afternoon, Bishop Sebastian met with the team for an update on the project and advised them on the work and timelines of the Holy Synod regarding the translations. Once the Holy Synod releases the Divine Liturgy, the hymnal will be ready to go to press.

Metropolitan Methodios, the liaison with the Holy Synod, has asked that tradi- tional melodies be used. The new hymnal will replace the green book produced by Ernie Villas years ago and that is still used in many parishes today. The team will continue its work to set to music the Apolytikia, Kontakia and other hymns as the Holy Synod approves the text.
When the congregational hymnal is completed, the National Forum will use the team to continue work to revise the hymns of the Orthodox Church instruc- tional series, which will also include the new English texts and music. The Forum is coordinating this project with Dr. Anton Vrame, director of Religious Education, for use in parish religious education programs.

Oloi Mazi team members include Maria Keritsis, National Forum chairman; Dr. Vicki Pappas, committee chairman; Fr. Chrysostomos Gilbert of New York, Dr. Tikey Zes of San Jose Calif;, Dr. Nick Maragos of Rochester, Minn; Kevin Law- rence of Winston-Salem, N.C.; and Nancy Takis of Lansing, Mich. Stan Takis of Lan- sing serves as scribe for the team and Dr. Grammenos Karanos of Holy Cross serves as consultant. Metropolitan Methodios, liaison for the National Forum to the Holy Synod, has been providing valuable sup- port and guidance.
The next “Oloi Mazi” team meeting will be in Boston in early 2016. [End]

I pray that the consultation of Dr. Karanos will bear fruit for a project whose other members are either severely lacking or at best have varying abilities to properly set texts to music.

I'm not disagreeing with you but how specifically are conditions getting worse? From what I observe, the same people continue to propagate the Greek-American choir repertoire with dwindling numbers when younger folks and seminarians, both male and female, are chanting with joy and vigor.

Of course this is a big country so I can't see everything so curious to know your thoughts.

R.

Conditions are getting worse by the participation, in official church projects like the above, of people very far away of the traditional chant.

Dr. Grammenos Karanos, a psaltis, is described not as a member of the team but just as a consultant, a term with dubious meaning.
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Let me chime in with my experience of what my outreach to the "Forum" resulted in (or did not).

Two years ago, the Forum representatives invited choir directors, chantors, priests to a grand summit to talk about and then decide on initiatives.

I will spare you the "choir" (i.e. polyphonic) initiatives.

I made an evidenced-backed argument that the Forum is not even providing on-line links to material on the internet (instructional, archival, libraries, and so on) for a serious consideration of their stated objective "to assist chantors and to promote Byzantine chant".

The power-that-is PLEDGED to have the Forum web domain modified within the year (this was two years ago) to include all this information and to work with the experienced chantors in the US to factually promote BM.

The result is still this:

http://churchmusic.goarch.org/

and

http://churchmusic.goarch.org/resources/chantresources

I correctly foresaw that the platitudes were just that.

Concurrently, the Holy Synod, and His Eminence, Geron Archbishop Dimitrios were sent a very detailed letter with evidence that the "Forum" is in fact hostile to BM (not to mention poorly-equipped at best), and asking him and the Synod to remove all responsibility of BM from the "Forum" so that it could be entrusted to a Synodical committee on BM that would be SERIOUS in its member constitution and serious in its mission. The "Forum" could thus be relieved of the burden of offering platitudes ad nauseam thus focusing on its real and cherished objectives, while a Synodical Committee, through serious and active membership, could begin - via Holy Cross for example - a nation-wide initiative.

The outcome? Two years later, and not even a courteous reply (even platitudes would have been civil) by the Geron and the Synod.

What conclusion would one rationally make about the seriousness of the Greek Orthodox Church of America to disseminate BM?

Contrast this with effective actions by the Metropolis of Toronto (Canada) [in practice an Archdiocese on its own that answers directly to the EP], where even though choirs do exist, the Metropolitan, his council, priests and many people, are seriously promoting BM.....

NG.
 
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romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Let me chime in with my experience of what my outreach to the "Forum" resulted in (or did not).

.
.
.

Contrast this with effective actions by the Metropolis of Toronto (Canada) [in practice an Archdiocese on its own that answers directly to the EP], where even though choirs do exist, the Metropolitan, his council, priests and many people, are seriously promoting BM.....

NG.

Guess it's time to move to Canada. That's not a serious answer. "How Long?" Of course the choir situation is just symptomatic of larger problems with respect to how people approach Church and the Faith in this country. To say more would come across as judgmental, but at least in terms of the "canon of endurance" argument, what tradition is really gaining? Even if it's fairly dully analyzed Byzantine music using western notation, that's an improvement in my eyes.

It's honestly difficult to tell - but indeed the existence of such programs as the aforementioned really make you scratch your head. Nothing will happen if clergy don't seek to implement good music and parish agree to invest the resources, regardless of how much music is produced by any committee.

Too many clergy are happy with the status quo, and to let their parishioners run off and do whatever they want so long as people stay involved and the parish keeps operating.

"Does the priest support chant?"
The answer to that should be "more and more, yes" as the seminary continues to graduate potential clergy with proficiency in chanting.

R.
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Oloi Mazi team members include Maria Keritsis, National Forum chairman; Dr. Vicki Pappas, committee chairman; Fr. Chrysostomos Gilbert of New York, Dr. Tikey Zes of San Jose Calif;, Dr. Nick Maragos of Rochester, Minn; Kevin Law- rence of Winston-Salem, N.C.; and Nancy Takis of Lansing, Mich. Stan Takis of Lan- sing serves as scribe for the team and Dr. Grammenos Karanos of Holy Cross serves as consultant. Metropolitan Methodios, liaison for the National Forum to the Holy Synod, has been providing valuable sup- port and guidance.
The next “Oloi Mazi” team meeting will be in Boston in early 2016. [End]

I pray that the consultation of Dr. Karanos will bear fruit for a project whose other members are either severely lacking or at best have varying abilities to properly set texts to music.

While I have no knowledge of the Byzantine musical abilities of the others members of the committee (other than Dr. Karanos of course), I would simply like to briefly comment that, without knowing about his aptitude in the art of composition, Fr. Chrysostom Gilbert's dedication to, love of, and exceptional ability in the Psaltic Art was always inspiring to me during my time at HCHC. I personally was very happy to see his name on the list. The recording below is him chanting the Theotoke Parthene.

In Christ,
Gabriel
 

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domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
Guess it's time to move to Canada. That's not a serious answer. "How Long?" Of course the choir situation is just symptomatic of larger problems with respect to how people approach Church and the Faith in this country. To say more would come across as judgmental, but at least in terms of the "canon of endurance" argument, what tradition is really gaining? Even if it's fairly dully analyzed Byzantine music using western notation, that's an improvement in my eyes.

It's honestly difficult to tell - but indeed the existence of such programs as the aforementioned really make you scratch your head. Nothing will happen if clergy don't seek to implement good music and parish agree to invest the resources, regardless of how much music is produced by any committee.

Too many clergy are happy with the status quo, and to let their parishioners run off and do whatever they want so long as people stay involved and the parish keeps operating.

"Does the priest support chant?"
The answer to that should be "more and more, yes" as the seminary continues to graduate potential clergy with proficiency in chanting.

R.

I don't disagree with your opinion, and Holy Cross' efforts are well-known and appreciated.

BUT. It's very important the hierarchy to just SHOW first that really really appreciates chanting. It's easy. In the next official visit to the US by the Patriarch let a psaltic choir to chant during the Liturgy.

To me it's totally unacceptable even the term ''Church musicians''. Inside the Church ''musicians'' have a name, psaltai, chanters. Using the above term ''musicians'' you can justify the use of every kind of music in the akolouthia.

So, the church can show willingness to restore chant, first in small things like these I described above, and then, slowly, with stronger actions.

Generally, byzantine studies in the US universities are wide-spread with publications and various projects. It's very difficult to me observing the official church not to encourage byzantine chanting and chanters. On the contrary supports teams and actions by ''musicians'', with the participation of psaltai, just consulting. Insulting, I say.
 
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