Soson Kyrie ton laon sou / Save, O Lord Thy people

Byzantine Chant

Νέο μέλος
Hello:

I am looking for the Greek text of hymn "Save, O Lord, Thy people."

The standard text is easy to find, but I want the text that says "nikas tois eusebesi kat' enantion doroumenos" instead of "nikas tois vasilevsi kata varvaron doroumenos."

Does anyone have this text?

Thank you!
 

π. Μάξιμος

Γενικός Συντονιστής

Σῶσον, Κύριε, τὸν λαόν σου καὶ εὐλόγησον τὴν κληρονομίαν σου, νίκας τοῖς εὐσεβέσι κατ᾿ ἐναντίων δωρούμενος, καὶ τὸ σὸν φυλάττων διὰ τοῦ Σταυροῦ σου πολίτευμα.

 
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parianos

Νίκος Γαβαλάς
Hello:

I am looking for the Greek text of hymn "Save, O Lord, Thy people."

The standard text is easy to find, but I want the text that says "nikas tois eusebesi kat' enantion doroumenos" instead of "nikas tois vasilevsi kata varvaron doroumenos."

Does anyone have this text?

Thank you!

Why do you want the text that has been altered? If you feel that we have the right to alter the text of the hymns, then we must continue and go through all the hymns and change the text anywhere the "king(s)) are mentioned. First of all one must see the hymnology as historic and fully understand to what period they refer. Also, king/basilis etc, should NOT be seen as the ruler of a particular nation, but as those who protect the faith........when the Hymn refers to the "city" what should we do? Originally the city mentioned in the hymns is Constantinople, should we change that word too?......or should we view the city as meaning the people who do God's will, the Christians....the church.........the congregation of the saints?
Just sharing my thoughts....no bullets going out to you....but why change the text???? I hope I have not offended you.
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
Why do you want the text that has been altered? If you feel that we have the right to alter the text of the hymns, then we must continue and go through all the hymns and change the text anywhere the "king(s)) are mentioned. First of all one must see the hymnology as historic and fully understand to what period they refer. Also, king/basilis etc, should NOT be seen as the ruler of a particular nation, but as those who protect the faith........when the Hymn refers to the "city" what should we do? Originally the city mentioned in the hymns is Constantinople, should we change that word too?......or should we view the city as meaning the people who do God's will, the Christians....the church.........the congregation of the saints?
Just sharing my thoughts....no bullets going out to you....but why change the text???? I hope I have not offended you.

Granted, I am not the original poster, but I do not find this statement offensive at all. It would indeed be a daunting (and, philosophically speaking, perhaps rather inane) task to try and revise the liturgical texts of our Church, either to make them more "inclusive" or "general" (as seems to be the idea behind the alternate Σώσον Κύριε) or more modern (which is more the approach of Fr. Seraphim Dedes, who once suggested to me that we should modernize the liturgical texts to a contemporary idiom, such that "barbarians" could be re-cast as... terrorists!!)

This is actually one of the few things I dislike about the translation of the Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA. Having worked with their translations now for an extended period of time, I have noticed that they consistently render phrases referring to "kings" in the original Greek with "hierarchs" in English. Likewise, "barbarians" is often changed to "heretics." I wonder if this is done out of a desire to create a more general translation (which I somewhat doubt), or if it motivated rather to be something of a canonical statement, given their affiliation with the Old Calendar Church of Greece, etc.

-Gabriel
 

parianos

Νίκος Γαβαλάς
Granted, I am not the original poster, but I do not find this statement offensive at all. It would indeed be a daunting (and, philosophically speaking, perhaps rather inane) task to try and revise the liturgical texts of our Church, either to make them more "inclusive" or "general" (as seems to be the idea behind the alternate Σώσον Κύριε) or more modern (which is more the approach of Fr. Seraphim Dedes, who once suggested to me that we should modernize the liturgical texts to a contemporary idiom, such that "barbarians" could be re-cast as... terrorists!!)

This is actually one of the few things I dislike about the translation of the Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA. Having worked with their translations now for an extended period of time, I have noticed that they consistently render phrases referring to "kings" in the original Greek with "hierarchs" in English. Likewise, "barbarians" is often changed to "heretics." I wonder if this is done out of a desire to create a more general translation (which I somewhat doubt), or if it motivated rather to be something of a canonical statement, given their affiliation with the Old Calendar Church of Greece, etc.

-Gabriel

To my mind Gabriel, those who wish to alter the text of our hymns have a deficient understanding of their overall theological meaning. We must not forget that the entire theology of our faith is in its hymnology. The hymns need no "improvements"...they are διαχρονικα, because they were divinely inspired.
I enjoyed your comments.
Nikos
 
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GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
To my mind Gabriel, those who wish to alter the text of our hymns have a deficient understanding of their overall theological meaning. We must not forget that the entire theology of our faith is in its hymnology. The hymns need no "improvements"...they are διαχρονικα, because they were divinely inspired.
I enjoyed your comments.
Nikos

I would mostly agree with this statement. It seems obvious to me that the fact that a hymn may have been written in response to a certain historical event in the life of the Church does not negate the diachronicity and applicability of that hymn to the rest of the Church throughout the ages. I think that this can (or should be) understood without necessarily trying to alter the words of a particular troparion to make it more relevant to one's current particular context. In the long run, doing so simply leads one down a slippery slope that requires the re-translation, re-modernization, and re-contextualization of the hymnology of our Church every "x" number of years... and to what end?

-Gabriel
 

parianos

Νίκος Γαβαλάς
I would mostly agree with this statement. It seems obvious to me that the fact that a hymn may have been written in response to a certain historical event in the life of the Church does not negate the diachronicity and applicability of that hymn to the rest of the Church throughout the ages. I think that this can (or should be) understood without necessarily trying to alter the words of a particular troparion to make it more relevant to one's current particular context. In the long run, doing so simply leads one down a slippery slope that requires the re-translation, re-modernization, and re-contextualization of the hymnology of our Church every "x" number of years... and to what end?

-Gabriel
I agree with you Gabriel. Basically you are reestablishing the point I made in my first post #3 about the hymns also referring to history and our need to be aware as to what period or event the hymns refer to.....we are on the same side here! :cool: It was nice exchanging views with you. God Bless!
 
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romanos4

Παλαιό Μέλος
Let's not be naive about HTM - Fr. Pachomios does fantastic work, but as, from their perspective, they are bulwarks of Orthodoxy, they clearly have certain groups in mind when they modify texts and specifically call out "heresy".
 

apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
Gabriel/Niko,

I agree with both of you. The words of the hymn should NOT be altered. No doubt, this "change" came about because of the disdain towards the king and the monarchy in general.

Years ago (and specifically, since 1974, I would assume), the Church of Greece, in their annual Hemerologion (now called the "Dypticha") had a short section titled, "Τελετουργικαί επιπτώσεις από της καταργήσεως της Βασιλείας" (loosely, "Teleturgical effects since the abolition of the Monarchy"). I don't believe this is being published any more in their annual Dypticha because... well, it's been quite a while since the monarchy was abolished and they must feel it makes no sense to do so any more. This section outlines exactly what can or can not be changed/altered/left out from the various hymns and prayers that reference kings or monarchs. I won't translate the entire article, but I'll give you the gist of it. After a short explanation about the matter, there are three subdivisions which I can outline here for you:

1. Deleted and omitted hereinafter:
a) Τhe "Polychronion";
b) Τhe commemorations of the kings during the Great entrance, in the "Eirinika" and in the "Ekteni";
c) The "Lord save the kings" ("Κύριε σώσον τους βασιλείς") during the hierarchical Liturgies, instead doing a triple-repetition of "Lord save the faithful" ("Κύριε σώσον τους ευσεβείς").
There is a notation here that the rubrics and prayers of the formal Doxologies of January 1, March 25 and October 28 are offered in their respective places in the Hemerologion book.

2. Preserved unchanged, as is:
a) The prayers of the Divine Liturgy, wherever the monarchs are commemorated (e.g. After the "Se ymnoumen": "...We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world; for the holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; for those living in purity and holiness; for the most faithful and Christ-friendly kings, all of the palace and of their camp. Give unto them, Lord, a peaceful kingdom, so that we, in their peacefulness, may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." (Note: the phrase about the "Christ-friendly kings", the palace and the camp has been replaced in most English Liturgical texts with something about "those in public service".)
b) The Apolytikia, Kontakia, Doxastika and other hymns which deal with kings (e.g. the Indictus, "... protect in peace the kings and your city..."; the Elevation of the Holy Cross, "Lifted up on the Cross by Your free will... Gladden our faithful kings by Your power..."; and similar hymns).
c) The petitions for the deceased Kings, Patriarchs, Hierarchs, etc.

3. Acceptable (but not imposed) omission of:
a) In the Dismissal prayer, the phrase "...our kings..." (without substituting with another phrase, such as "to our rulers").
b) In the Small and Great Blessing of the Waters, the phrase, "...and protect, O Lord, Your servants, our faithful kings... (up to) make them lenient in every way towards the nation of the Christians who serves You." [Small Blessing of the Waters] or up to "...every enemy and adversary" [Great Blessing of the Waters]. (Sometimes "kings" is translated as "rulers" in English, but in Greek, "βασιλείς" should never be substituted with something like "άρχοντες".)

That's basically the meat of the whole thing. The article then makes a specific mention about the hymn "Σώσον Κύριε τον Λαόν Σου", and notes that the phrase "νίκας τοις βασιλεύσι κατά βαρβάρων δωρούμενος" should NEVER be substituted with "νίκας τοις ευσεβέσι κατ' εναντίον..." because this hymn and the other two that accompany it before the Exapsalmos ("Ο υψωθείς... εύφρανον εν τη δυνάμη σου τους πιστούς βασιλείς ημών..." and "Προστασία φοβερά και ακαταίσχυντε... σώζε ους εκέλευσας βασιλεύειν...") are historically established as prayers and that the words "vasileis" and "vasilevein" can also mean, in general, "rulers" and "those who rule". The article references some passages from Luke, the First Epistle of Paul to Timothy and the First Epistle of Peter to further make its case. On the whole, it's really a good article and there is no question as to what needs to be followed.

I hope this has been helpful. If anyone has already scanned this section from a prior-year Hemerologion book of the Church of Greece, please upload it. If not, I'll try to do it sometime in the next week or so. The article is entirely in Greek, but I have given you the main points, above.

Apostolos
 
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Panagiotis G.

Μέλος
This is actually one of the few things I dislike about the translation of the Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, MA. Having worked with their translations now for an extended period of time, I have noticed that they consistently render phrases referring to "kings" in the original Greek with "hierarchs" in English. Likewise, "barbarians" is often changed to "heretics." I wonder if this is done out of a desire to create a more general translation (which I somewhat doubt), or if it motivated rather to be something of a canonical statement, given their affiliation with the Old Calendar Church of Greece, etc.

-Gabriel

The reason HTM does this, I think, is because they were once part of ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of Russia). Since Russia was under a Communist government, many Russian refugees were uncomfortable praying for rulers or civil authorities whom they regarded as open enemies and persecutors of the Church. Thus many of the texts were changed from "kings" to "hierarchs" and the like.

Like many of you, I disagree with this for the reasons you have mentioned. But you might notice that many American Russian churches do this, probably originating from this unease with Russia's Communist government. Here's the OCA translation:

"O Lord, save Your people, / And bless Your inheritance. / Grant victories to the Orthodox Christians / Over their adversaries. / And by virtue of Your Cross, / Preserve Your habitation."

HTM is under no church in Greece (they are self-ruled, which is a major part of their problem). As I understand, Old Calendar churches in Greece do not change the words in their troparia (generally they tend to be conservative, so they would be uneasy to do this).

I have noticed that Father Panagiotis Papagiannis in his Μουσικόν Μηνολόγιον for September actually writes out the dismissal hymn for the Cross with "νίκας τοις ευσεβέσει...," so I think this has to do more with Greece eliminating its monarchy than anything else, as people have suggested above.

Panagiotis G.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
Why do you want the text that has been altered? If you feel that we have the right to alter the text of the hymns, then we must continue and go through all the hymns and change the text anywhere the "king(s)) are mentioned. First of all one must see the hymnology as historic and fully understand to what period they refer. Also, king/basilis etc, should NOT be seen as the ruler of a particular nation, but as those who protect the faith........when the Hymn refers to the "city" what should we do? Originally the city mentioned in the hymns is Constantinople, should we change that word too?......or should we view the city as meaning the people who do God's will, the Christians....the church.........the congregation of the saints?
Just sharing my thoughts....no bullets going out to you....but why change the text???? I hope I have not offended you.

The Russkies already set the precedent for the change of text from Kings and barbarians, and certainly most of the English translations already take that into consideration.

What does one do with a phrase like "Let us the choir of monastics..." when chanted as it is most likely in a majority of situations, by a married psalti with 10 kids? Or is he a Third Order monastic?

JPP
 

GabrielCremeens

Music Director at St. George, Albuquerque, NM
What does one do with a phrase like "Let us the choir of monastics..." when chanted as it is most likely in a majority of situations, by a married psalti with 10 kids? Or is he a Third Order monastic?

JPP

I get the rationale here, but I reiterate that it would be a huge project to go through the liturgical books of our Church and try to "edit" all of the hymns like this on the excuse that they're not applicable to the person chanting the hymn in question. It's simply a result of the historical origin of our hymnography - the majority of our hymns were written by the monks of the Studite Monastery for use in their services (Monastic rite). With the decline of the cathedral rite, we adopted the order of services, books, etc, from the Studite Monastery. So, obviously, there will be lots of references to monastics. Doesn't necessarily mean we should change it, though.

-Gabriel
 

basil

Παλαιό Μέλος
c) The "Lord save the kings" ("Κύριε σώσον τους βασιλείς") during the hierarchical Liturgies, instead doing a triple-repetition of "Lord save the faithful" ("Κύριε σώσον τους ευσεβείς").

Here's a philosophical question for those who believe that liturgical texts should not be altered: do you agree or disagree with the above portion of the directive from the Church of Greece? If you agree with it, then what is the rationale for changing "Κύριε σώσον τους βασιλείς" to "Κύριε σώσον τους ευσεβείς"?
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
Here's a philosophical question for those who believe that liturgical texts should not be altered: do you agree or disagree with the above portion of the directive from the Church of Greece? If you agree with it, then what is the rationale for changing "Κύριε σώσον τους βασιλείς" to "Κύριε σώσον τους ευσεβείς"?

The above is not a troparion with specific theological meaning but just an acclamation.

So it can easily be altered without any significance, in order not to stir hostile feelings among the faithful -the Church must be kept above politics, a very sensitive matter in Greece even after so many years.
 

apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
The above is not a troparion with specific theological meaning but just an acclamation.

So it can easily be altered without any significance, in order not to stir hostile feelings among the faithful -the Church must be kept above politics, a very sensitive matter in Greece even after so many years.

I disagree with the statement that the troparion can "easily be altered without any significance." Historically, our kings (emperors) were defenders of the faith and represented a country's military strength in combating those who attacked it. I supposed you'll bring up a few who were atheists or who were against the faith, but then you would be missing the point. If we can "easily alter" the Soson Kyrie ton lao sou, then we can easily alter the Ti Ypermaho, which refers to the victory of Constantinople (ruled by an emperor) against her adversaries. We can play similar acrobatics with other hymns, but for what reason? To appease a handful of people who don't like the monarchy? Right now, there IS NO monarchy in Greece, so why are they so insecure about this? Why not acknowledge historically the role of the kings in our faith? And besides, there are still kings in many countries of the world, whether they be absolute rulers or "ambassadors" (figureheads) of a particular country.

Finally, the troparion DOES have a specific theological meaning. The Cross of Christ is referred to here as an instrument of salvation, protection and victory. Our Holy Fathers have spoken vehemently about this and many have lost their lives proclaiming this.

To me, this is a non-issue. I have never chanted the altered version. To those who have this phobia of the monarchy, consider that tois vasilefsi could easily refer to "those who rule" as opposed to "kings", specifically.

Apostolos
 

parianos

Νίκος Γαβαλάς
I think "Domesticus" was referring to "Κυριε Σωσον τους Βασιλεις/Ευσεβεις"....when he said it has no theological meaning.....He was not referring to the Απολυτικιον Σωσον Κυριε τον Λαον Σου.
 

domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
I disagree with the statement that the troparion can "easily be altered without any significance." Historically, our kings (emperors) were defenders of the faith and represented a country's military strength in combating those who attacked it. I supposed you'll bring up a few who were atheists or who were against the faith, but then you would be missing the point. If we can "easily alter" the Soson Kyrie ton lao sou, then we can easily alter the Ti Ypermaho, which refers to the victory of Constantinople (ruled by an emperor) against her adversaries. We can play similar acrobatics with other hymns, but for what reason? To appease a handful of people who don't like the monarchy? Right now, there IS NO monarchy in Greece, so why are they so insecure about this? Why not acknowledge historically the role of the kings in our faith? And besides, there are still kings in many countries of the world, whether they be absolute rulers or "ambassadors" (figureheads) of a particular country.

Finally, the troparion DOES have a specific theological meaning. The Cross of Christ is referred to here as an instrument of salvation, protection and victory. Our Holy Fathers have spoken vehemently about this and many have lost their lives proclaiming this.

To me, this is a non-issue. I have never chanted the altered version. To those who have this phobia of the monarchy, consider that tois vasilefsi could easily refer to "those who rule" as opposed to "kings", specifically.

Apostolos

I think "Domesticus" was referring to "Κυριε Σωσον τους Βασιλεις/Ευσεβεις"....when he said it has no theological meaning.....He was not referring to the Απολυτικιον Σωσον Κυριε τον Λαον Σου.

That's right, I 'm talking about «Κύριε σῶσον τοὺς Βασιλεῖς/Εὐσεβεῖς"....

For the apolytikion I agree with the traditional version.
 
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