What is the most proper and authentic Byzantine chant?

Феодор

Μέλος
Hi,

I'm new to Byzantine chant and have the following question. What is proper Byzantine chanting? I hear a lot about Lycourgous Angelopolous and how he "ruined" byzantine chanting. Or for example that Simonopetra's chanting is also not considered as authentic Byzantine chant. Why? And what is considered to be the most proper, authentic Byzantine chant?

Could anyone suggest any recordings to listen to in any language? I'd be interested in choirs or separate chanters. Recordings can be old, new, doesn't matter. I just want to hear how real, authentic Byzantine chant is supposed to sound. Maybe someone can just link me to some of the parts of the greek forum dedicated to separate chanters or choirs. The more recordings the better. Would prefer to listen to a monastic choir...

P.s. How does the Vatopedi monastery fare as far as correct chanting goes?

P.p.s. Would be great if anyone could link me to some properly executed slavonic Byzantine chant because I understand Church Slavonic well. Currently I have recordings made in Hilandar and by fr. Paisios Tanasievich and have heard much positive things said about these particular recordings.


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EDIT: Thanks! One last question. I know that for example Simonopetra and Vatopedi have a lot of audio cds, but their chanting is not authentic.

Are there any cds of any monastic choirs that chant properly? I'd be willing to pay if they're sold online.


.
 
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evangelos

Ευάγγελος Σολδάτος
To distinguish the original chanting there is one certain rule, as far back in time you go the chanting is the most propper.

The The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople chanters are the most reliable to be authentic because the attitude to tradition there is in general more strict. Nafpliotis Iakovos (Ναυπλιώτης Ιάκωβος) and Pringos Konstantinos (Πρίγγος Κωνσταντίνος) are the most representative couple and the oldest recordings of original chanting
Here is all recordings of this type of chanting : Πατριαρχικοί
and Chanters that come frome Constantinolple who know this tradition as well here: Κωνσταντινοπολίτες The students of them are also good and traditional chanters. Here are links to recordings of bishop of Samos Irineos (Μητροπολίτης Σάμου Ειρηναίος Παπαμιχαήλ (1878 -1963)). He has the style very close to Nafpliotis and for me is the most reprezentative of the ancient harmonics and parallage(παραλλαγή), acording to my personal work and research.

Also in mount Athos you can find the original chanting [ beware Vatopedi (Βατοπεδινοί -Fathers from Vatopedi monastery), In Vatopedi last years have been teachers from Athens who have passed to them also a different style not so traditional]

Here is the link for all Fathers of Athos chanting:Αγιορείτες
 
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Феодор

Μέλος
To distinguish the original chanting there is one certain rule, as far back in time you go the chanting is the most propper.

The The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople chanters are the most reliable to be authentic because the attitude to tradition there is in general more strict. Nafpliotis Iakovos (Ναυπλιώτης Ιάκωβος) and Pringos Konstantinos (Πρίγγος Κωνσταντίνος) are the most representative couple and the oldest recordings of original chanting
Here is all recordings of this type of chanting : Πατριαρχικοί
and Chanters that come frome Constantinolple who know this tradition as well here: Κωνσταντινοπολίτες The students of them are also good and traditional chanters. Here are links to recordings of bishop of Samos Irineos (Μητροπολίτης Σάμου Ειρηναίος Παπαμιχαήλ (1878 -1963)). He has the style very close to Nafpliotis and for me is the most reprezentative of the ancient harmonics and parallage(παραλλαγή), acording to my personal work and research.

Also in mount Athos you can find the original chanting [ beware Vatopedi (Βατοπεδινοί -Fathers from Vatopedi monastery), In Vatopedi last years have been teachers from Athens who have passed to them also a different style not so traditional]

Here is the link for all Fathers of Athos chanting:Αγιορείτες

Thank you! :)
 

Феодор

Μέλος
One last question. I know that for example Simonopetra and Vatopedi have a lot of audio cds, but their chanting is not authentic.

Are there any cds of any monastic choirs that chant properly? I'd be willing to pay if they're sold online.
 
Dear Феодор,

Fr. Pajsije is fine. He was, as much as I know, a student of Firfiris (the greatest chanter on Mount Athos of the 20th century).

I suggest you to listen to Firfiris (most of the recordings of him was made by the one that you heard that destroyed byzantine music, Angelopoulos (on the contrary, but I will not start another endless end useless polemic here, if you want, write me on this matter to inbox)).

You can also listen to others. There are many recordings of various good Chanters on the forum. I would always suggest you Nafpliotis, Stanitsas, Pringos (those two specialy from the time when they sung in Patriarchate), but also monks from Mount Athos from the skites of Danileoi, Aghia Anna etc ... There are so many good psaltes and choirs and I wouldn't suggest you to stick just to one of them.

Each chanter sings differently and many times even the same chanter sings differently from what he have sung previously. That shows us that in the essence of byzantine music is freedom, an energy that we find in musical signs and the possibility to sing the same musical frase each time differently. Many studies have been written on this and it is a fact.

My advice would be to be open minded and don't listen to everyone. Vatopedi is fine. ;)

When you hear most of the old recordings that there are, if you start reading some of the things and get more deeply in the problematic, you will realize that, just as his teacher, Lykourgos Angelopoulos, made a synthesis of all that is authentic and presented it to the whole world on the best possible way and in the brightest light.

The judge is on you and on the history and the reception of the Church!

Have a good, easy and blessed Sarakosti! :)
 
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domesticus

Lupus non curat numerum ovium
Dear Феодор,

Fr. Pajsije is fine. He was, as much as I know, a student of Firfiris (the greatest chanter on Mount Athos of the 20th century).

I suggest you to listen to Firfiris (most of the recordings of him was made by the one that you heard that destroyed byzantine music, Angelopoulos (on the contrary, but I will not start another endless end useless polemic here, if you want, write me on this matter to inbox)).

You can also listen to others. There are many recordings of various good Chanters on the forum. I would always suggest you Nafpliotis, Stanitsas, Pringos (those two specialy from the time when they sung in Patriarchate), but also monks from Mount Athos from the skites of Danileoi, Aghia Anna etc ... There are so many good psaltes and choirs and I wouldn't suggest you to stick just to one of them.

Each chanter sings differently and many times even the same chanter sings differently from what he have sung previously. That shows us that in the essence of byzantine music is freedom, an energy that we find in musical signs and the possibility to sing the same musical frase each time differently. Many studies have been written on this and it is a fact.

My advice would be to be open minded and don't listen to everyone. Vatopedi is fine. ;)

When you hear most of the old recordings that there are, if you start reading some of the things and get more deeply in the problematic, you will realize that, just as his teacher, Lykourgos Angelopoulos, made a synthesis of all that is authentic and presented it to the whole world on the best possible way and in the brightest light.

The judge is on you and on the history and the reception of the Church!

Have a good, easy and blessed Sarakosti! :)


Αbout the reception of the Church, I have to remind you the Announcement of the Patriarchal Holy Synod on Ecclesiastic Music about the rejection of the Method by Simon Karas, teacher of Lycourgos Angelopoulos.
 

evangelos

Ευάγγελος Σολδάτος
My advice would be to be open minded and don't listen to everyone.

..and my advice would be to be open minded and listen to everyone.

Lykourgos Angelopoulos was my teacher, my diploma has his signature with a Perfect 10/10 degree.
I will try not to start here explaining again in English the Roman Byzantine music issue. Firfiris ofcourse is one of the most traditional chanters. We ought these recordings to Lykourgos Angelopoulos.

Angelopulos also presented his (nice) music bazed to byzantine music to all over the world but in fact it is a new way of chanting. Maybe it is nice and great, many people like it and me too. But it is not traditional, they say that they are traditional but I have prooved the oposite of this. For further information look my blog. Unfortunately It is in Greek, I dind't have time to translated it in English, sorry for that.
 
Have someone proved the same thing for Vatopedi? I'm just courios...
For me, he is the most important of all the others together. I find Angelopoulos very traditional and at the same time admire to your high degree :)
I will check out your blog, thanks for the sugestion... ;)
 
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grecothegekko

Νέο μέλος
Dear Феодор,

There are a few different styles of traditional chant - including Patriarchal, Constantinopolitan, Athonite - that though distinct (at least to a trained ear), maintain common qualities that "make" them traditional. As alluded to above, some of these styles have now in the modern day either become altogether lost or are very different from what they used to be - and for many reasons upon which I will not expound in this message.

Here are some more links of recordings of chanters often regarded as the most traditional. Mr. Soldatos already mentioned Iakovos Nafpliotis (http://analogion.com/site/html/Nafpliotis.html) and Konstantinos Pringos.

Fr. Dositheos Katounakiotis - Was a blind monk on Mt. Athos who was nothing short of a master of chant. He is regarded as among the most traditional (personally I would put him "top 5" - even above Firfiris). His style is a blend of Patriarchal/Constantinopolitan/Asia Minor and Athonite.

Here is a link to his recordings - totaling about 9.5 hours (and there are about 100 more hours that are unreleased as of the present day).

http://www.mediafire.com/download/v609j65bhy6rex5/Π._Δοσίθεος_Κατουνακιώτης.zip

Abbot Alexios of Xenophon Monastery - Currently the Abbot of this Monastery on Mt. Athos and extremely talented yet traditional. It is unclear who taught him (i.e. where his style comes from). Here is a link to a Holy Week/Easter CD that is mostly him chanting (and I would take example from him only on the recordings). This CD, to my knowledge, was the first commercially-produced live recording of chant ever.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Monks-of-Xenophontos-Monastery/Ensemble/166841-4

And live video from a couple years back. He is the first voice you hear on the recording. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c835_KGpd7E

Metropolitan Eirinaios of Samos - To whom Mr. Soldatos referred in his message. Here is a link of the complete set of recordings. His style is considered very purely Patriarchal, as Mr. Soldatos mentioned.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/1gfkqnx6ysomihu/Ηχογραφήσεις_Μέλπω_Μερλιέ_(1930).zip

Old Athonite Chanters - Including Fr. Gabriel Magkavos, Fr. Romanos of Vatopedi, Fr. Ignatios of Vatopedi. These recordings can be purchased as part of a collection of old recordings from Mt. Athos, which represent the Athonite style (including Vatopedi) prior to influence from the Karas school or Athenian schools. The three I named were highly regarded in their time (and unfortunately have been largely forgotten). They demonstrate a style distinct from the Patriarchal/Constantinopolitan, but still considered traditional due to maintaining certain aspects of performance.

https://www.stamoulis.gr/%CE%91%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%A8%CE%AC%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82-CD-%CE%98%CE%AE%CE%BA%CE%B7-%CE%BC%CE%B5-10-CD-s_p-401163.aspx

Other names to search on this forum (I've written out their last names in Greek so you can more easily find their recordings on this forum in the Greek section):
Georgios Karakasis (Καρακάσης)
Stylianos Tsolakidis (Τσολακίδης)
Georgios Dapphas (Δάφφας)
Stephanos Prousalis (Προύσαλης)
Lykourgos Petridis (Πετρίδης)
Fr. Panayiotis Tsinaras (Τσιναρας)
Anastasios Michailidis (Μιχαηλίδης).
Fr. Nikolaos Mavropoulos (Μαυρόπουλος)

Many of these chanters took lessons from Iakovos Nafpliotis or were heavily influenced by his style. All of these are of the old Constantinopolitan/Patriarchal style (minor differences between the two, but again, they both retain certain parameters that many agree are consistent with traditional chanting as a whole).

I hope this helps. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions.

Have a blessed Lenten season,
Andonios
 

Pappous43

Παλαιό Μέλος
If you want an old man's comment (for what it's worth),
Liturgical Byzantine Music is there for one purpose mainly,
to help the people come closer to God,
to inspire them the uneffable via the universal language of (proper) music,
to grant them devoutness, even contrition of heart.
Do this test: Listen to any Chanter (Psaltis) and apply the above criterion:
Do you come closer to God when listening to that Chanter?

Mind you, you may not find one particular Chanter ALWAYS as inspiring:
The final result is a combination of parameters, like,
-Chanter (many interpretations, many schools and styles)
-his health or fatigue, (not all moments are the same)
-the actual byzantine composition sung (they are not all just as beautiful).

Looking back, another parameter MAY be the time factor. After many years you may be fed up with a certain Chanter, or even the opposite. I stress MAYBE.

Having said all this, the fact remains that the Patriarchate Chanters, are in general among those you are after.


Last but not least, why is it necessary that you are inspired by Chanter X,
and I may not be inspired by Chanter Y?
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
I suggest you to listen to Firfiris (most of the recordings of him was made by the one that you heard that destroyed byzantine music, Angelopoulos (on the contrary, but I will not start another endless end useless polemic here, if you want, write me on this matter to inbox)).

My remark is tangential to this thread, but I thought I could chyme in: the person who recorded Firfiris the most is Manolis Chatzigiakoumis, not Lykourgos Angelopoulos. In fact, my understanding is that even some of the early Firfiris tapes commercially published by the Greek Byzantine Choir were made from recordings brought by Chatzigiakoumis to Angelopoulos. Of course, Angelopoulos also made his own recordings of Firfiris, and furthermore, extensively publicised him through various channels (e.g. his radio programme).
 
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