On expertise and scholarship in Byzantine music

[domesticus]

[Moderator's note] Moved from Dr. Grammenos Karanos, Assistant Professor of Byzantine Liturgical Music at Hellenic College-Holy Cross, Brookline, MA, USA

Spyridon Antonopoulos, whom the vocal chamber ensemble Capella Romana calls "a top-flight Byzantine cantor", directs the choir.

The vocal chamber ensemble Capella Romana are such experts on Byzantine Music and Chanting? Who are their teachers I wonder ...

Some enlightenment please.

 

[dimskrekas]

The vocal chamber ensemble Capella Romana are such experts on Byzantine Music and Chanting? Who are their teachers I wonder ...

Some enlightenment please.

I can assure you, dear Domestice, that Spyridon Antonopoulos is a really gifted young man, a Byzantine Musicologist of exceptionally high quality, and, as stated, a 'top-flight cantor' of course. He is modest too. I'm sure he won't be happy reading all these comments about him.

D.

 

[domesticus]

I can assure you, dear Domestice, that Spyridon Antonopoulos is a really gifted young man, a Byzantine Musicologist of exceptionally high quality, and, as stated, a 'top-flight cantor' of course. He is modest too. I'm sure he won't be happy reading all these comments about himself.

D.

It wasn't my intention to comment about Mr. Spyridon Antonopoulos and I hope everything are as you say.

I 'm just wonering if Capella Romana are such experts on Byzantine Music and Chanting, especially the last ...

 

[dimskrekas]

It wasn't my intention to comment about Mr. Spyridon Antonopoulos and I hope everything are as you say.

I 'm just wonering if Capella Romana are such experts on Byzantine Music and Chanting, especially the last ...

You can ask another friend of yours about it. He has strong connections with Capella Romana.


D.

 

[greek487]

I can assure you, dear Domestice, that Spyridon Antonopoulos is a really gifted young man, a Byzantine Musicologist of exceptionally high quality, and, as stated, a 'top-flight cantor' of course. He is modest too. I'm sure he won't be happy reading all these comments about him.

D.

Indeed!! And, most importantly, a high quality, traditional chanter.



. . .

 

[greek487]

I 'm just wonering if Capella Romana are such experts on Byzantine Music and Chanting, especially the last ...

Capella Romana needs to prove that they are 'experts' in order to speak the truth about a byzantine musicologist?

"especially the last. . ."?


. . .

 

[domesticus]

Capella Romana needs to prove that they are 'experts' in order to speak the truth about a byzantine musicologist?

"especially the last. . ."?


. . .

Not about musicology but about chanting ... They are not exactly the same.

PS. I don't speak about Mr Spyridon Antonopoulos, I don't know him, generally speaking.

 

[ByzOldSchool]

it is sad that the tred in psaltic music is now to transform it into a science, learned in those institutions so called conservatory and schools of byzanthin music, but were is those schools named analogion's and those teachers called masters or protopsalts ??? were is the tradition and the spirit of conserving the pure psaltic music ??? sad indeed.

 

[greek487]

Not about musicology but about chanting ... They are not exactly the same.

PS. I don't speak about Mr Spyridon Antonopoulos, I don't know him, generally speaking.

Fair enough.

Just a couple of additional thoughts I considered before you responded . . .

During the 2005 Christmas season, Capella Romana and The Boston Early Music Festival (BEMF) brought The Greek Byzantine Choir under the direction of Lycourgos Angelopoulos from Greece to tour Seattle, Portland, and Boston.

At the end of the tour, I asked the BEMF officer responsible for the events, "What did you think about The Greek Byzantine Choir? How did everything go?" His only response was, "They're the best in the world."

Is the BEMF entitled to their opinion? Or do they first need to prove that they 'experts'? Early music is their specialty, afterall.

I only know of one individual who calls himself an 'expert' in Byzantine chant. Typically, individuals are called 'experts' by others as a term of praise. But doesn't it take an 'expert' to judge who in fact is a true 'expert'? And who ascribes the label 'expert' on the judge. . . ad infinitum? Are 'experts' infallible?

'Expert' is a tricky term and one that I typically avoid using. The terms 'specialist' or 'scholar' are more useful.


. . .

 

[domesticus]

Fair enough.

Just a couple of additional thoughts I considered before you responded . . .

During the 2005 Christmas season, Capella Romana and The Boston Early Music Festival (BEMF) brought The Greek Byzantine Choir under the direction of Lycourgos Angelopoulos from Greece to tour Seattle, Portland, and Boston.

At the end of the tour, I asked the BEMF officer responsible for the events, "What did you think about The Greek Byzantine Choir? How did everything go?" His only response was, "They're the best in the world."

Is the BEMF entitled to their opinion? Or do they first need to prove that they 'experts'? Early music is their specialty, afterall.

I only know of one individual who calls himself an 'expert' in Byzantine chant. Typically, individuals are called 'experts' by others as a term of praise. But doesn't it take an 'expert' to judge who in fact is a true 'expert'? And who ascribes the label 'expert' on the judge. . . ad infinitum? Are 'experts' infallible?

'Expert' is a tricky term and one that I typically avoid using. The terms 'specialist' or 'scholar' are more useful.


. . .

In order to be accepted as an expert chanter in our tradition it is necessary to follow an established teacher. If we know his teacher and his teacher and so on, the continuity of tradition can be also verified.

So

Who are their teachers I wonder ...

Some enlightenment please.

PS. All the Early Music are not the same and there are many interpretations, some of them very dubius.

 

[greek487]

it is sad that the tred in psaltic music is now to transform it into a science, learned in those institutions so called conservatory and schools of byzanthin music, but were is those schools named analogion's and those teachers called masters or protopsalts ??? were is the tradition and the spirit of conserving the pure psaltic music ??? sad indeed.

Welcome back to Psaltologion ByzOldSchool!! I love your ID! Rock on!

I gather you are Romanian from your other posts. I love the Romanian chanters in general. They seem very disciplined and ecclesiastical, avoiding theatrical vocal acrobatics simply for the sake of show like some Greek chanters do.

I whole-heartedly agree with the spirit of your comments above. Byzantine chant is an art form. And sometimes practitioners of this art form use the terms of science in order to develop an organized system and a disciplined approach to the music. But this isn't always necessary. Our discipline in musical matters should follow from the 'best practices' of tradition, both written and oral, not 'science'.

I don't believe any university or any institution of higher learning places music within the science department. We know of the hard sciences (natural sciences such as biology, chemistry, and physics) and the soft sciences (social sciences such as psychology, sociology, and economics). And you will never see music taught alongside any of these subjects. And rightfully so!

I believe that we should use the term 'science' in this strict sense as often as possible. And therefore, we respect the rightful place of true science and avoid distorting our music into something that it isn't. Of course, I don't think it's wrong to teach a broad notion of 'science' when working with youngsters. This can often help them understand that we all must conform to certain immutable musical principles in order to achieve our goals. I think that it is within this spirit that Dr. Karanos employs what he calls "Chanting Labs" in his teaching practice. I don't really see any problem with that.

But that doesn't mean that we confuse 'science' with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY in order to force our colleagues to agree with us on more advanced topics, or to coerce fellow practitioners to follow our practices, or to monopolize what can be called 'traditional' and seek to marginalize entire groups of respected individuals. ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY and UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT is not typically found in more advanced scientific matters. We ought not pretend that they should always be present.

Conversely, the fact that music is not science, does not mean that we can therefore be sloppy in our scholarship, or dismissive of musicology as a whole. We are not completely free to do whatever we want whenever we want and call it authentic, traditional, correct byzantine chant. Poetic license has its limits if we wish to remain traditional.

Centuries ago, the term 'science' (episteme in Greek) used to have a broader meaning where philosophy, ethics, and even theology may have been included. Modern science has forever changed that and we ought to accept it.


. . .

 

[greek487]

In order to be accepted as an expert chanter in our tradition it is necessary to follow an established teacher. If we know his teacher and his teacher and so on, the continuity of tradition can be also verified.

I know it's just a word, but words are important. I wouldn't use the term 'expert' here, or in almost any other instance. I explained my views on the term in the previous post. The term 'expert' simply approaches a sense of infallibility too closely for my taste.

There's so many other descriptive words we can use to describe an effective, traditional chanter. . . critically-acclaimed, great, esteemed, respected, traditional, deeply knowledgeable, authoritative, highly skilled, perfect, impeccable, highly advanced, virtuosic etc.

PS. All the Early Music are not the same and there are many interpretations, some of them very dubius.

I agree. This also applies to some of the interpretations of "expert chanters" and "established teachers" . . . dubius[sic] indeed. . . :wink:


. . .

 

[domesticus]

I agree. This also applies to some of the interpretations of "expert chanters" and "established teachers" . . . dubius[sic] indeed. . . :wink:


. . .

It is another thing to exaggerate on chanting, using dubious techniques under selfish inspiration but still know what is right (there is always the possibility to return to the traditional yphos) and another thing to begin with dubious theories and listening and keep going on a twisted road without ever considering the possibility of falseness.

We have a saying: Τὸ παιδὶ καὶ τὸ σκυλί ὅπως τὸ μάθεις.

PS. Forgive my english, I 'm a bit rusty.

 

[domesticus]

Welcome back to Psaltologion ByzOldSchool!! I love your ID! Rock on!

I gather you are Romanian from your other posts. I love the Romanian chanters in general. They seem very disciplined and ecclesiastical, avoiding theatrical vocal acrobatics simply for the sake of show like some Greek chanters do.

I whole-heartedly agree with the spirit of your comments above. Byzantine chant is an art form. And sometimes practitioners of this art form use the terms of science in order to develop an organized system and a disciplined approach to the music. But this isn't always necessary. Our discipline in musical matters should follow from the 'best practices' of tradition, both written and oral, not 'science'.

I don't believe any university or any institution of higher learning places music within the science department. We know of the hard sciences (natural sciences such as biology, chemistry, and physics) and the soft sciences (social sciences such as psychology, sociology, and economics). And you will never see music taught alongside any of these subjects. And rightfully so!

I believe that we should use the term 'science' in this strict sense as often as possible. And therefore, we respect the rightful place of true science and avoid distorting our music into something that it isn't. Of course, I don't think it's wrong to teach a broad notion of 'science' when working with youngsters. This can often help them understand that we all must conform to certain immutable musical principles in order to achieve our goals. I think that it is within this spirit that Dr. Karanos employs what he calls "Chanting Labs" in his teaching practice. I don't really see any problem with that.

But that doesn't mean that we confuse 'science' with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY in order to force our colleagues to agree with us on more advanced topics, or to coerce fellow practitioners to follow our practices, or to monopolize what can be called 'traditional' and seek to marginalize entire groups of respected individuals. ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY and UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT is not typically found in more advanced scientific matters. We ought not pretend that they should always be present.

Conversely, the fact that music is not science, does not mean that we can therefore be sloppy in our scholarship, or dismissive of musicology as a whole. We are not completely free to do whatever we want whenever we want and call it authentic, traditional, correct byzantine chant. Poetic license has its limits if we wish to remain traditional.

Centuries ago, the term 'science' (episteme in Greek) used to have a broader meaning where philosophy, ethics, and even theology may have been included. Modern science has forever changed that and we ought to accept it.


. . .

OK, let's burn all the scientific PhD's on byzantine musicology, they have nothing to offer ...

 

[greek487]

It is another thing to exaggerate on chanting, using dubious techniques under selfish inspiration but still know what is right (there is always the possibility to return to the traditional yphos) and another thing to begin with dubious theories and listening and keep going on a twisted road without ever considering the possibility of falseness.

We have a saying: Τὸ παιδὶ καὶ τὸ σκυλί ὅπως τὸ μάθεις.

PS. Forgive my english, I 'm a bit rusty.

Dear Domesticus,

I don't quite understand what you mean to say, or to whom you are referring to. Moreover, your comments don't seem relevant to this topic, so perhaps you will start a new thread with your ideas.

OK, let's burn all the scientific PhD's on byzantine musicology, they have nothing to offer ...

The realm of art, music, and scholarship contain, among other things, PhD dissertations in byzantine musicology. The 'sciences' include no such subject matter.

I specifically stated,

Conversely, the fact that music is not science, does not mean that we can therefore be sloppy in our scholarship, or dismissive of musicology as a whole.

So, if you seek 'science', you can find it elsewhere. Strictly speaking, Byzantine musicology is NOT 'science' or 'scientific'. It is scholarship.

Stated differently, byzantine musicologists are not scientists. They are scholars. Biologists, chemists, or physicists, for example, can rightfully call themselves 'scientists'.


. . .

 

[domesticus]

Dear Domesticus,

I don't quite understand what you mean to say, or to whom you are referring to. Moreover, your comments don't seem relevant to this topic, so perhaps you will start a new thread with your ideas.




The realm of art, music, and scholarship contain, among other things, PhD dissertations in byzantine musicology. The 'sciences' include no such subject matter.

I specifically stated,


So, if you seek 'science', you can find it elsewhere. Strictly speaking, Byzantine musicology is NOT 'science' or 'scientific'. It is scholarship.

Stated differently, byzantine musicologists are not scientists. They are scholars. Biologists, chemists, or physicists, for example, can rightfully call themselves 'scientists'.


. . .

OK.

ἐπιστήμη vs science
ἐπιστήμη vs scholarship

Graeca sunt non leguntur

 

[Nikolaos Giannoukakis]

.....