I am pleased that the first criteria my proistamenos has for finding the replacement for our choir director is that this individual be Orthodox above all else.
Happy to hear that as well! One would think that would be a given.
I am pleased that the first criteria my proistamenos has for finding the replacement for our choir director is that this individual be Orthodox above all else.
Let's leave aside the Sakelarides style and the western-influenced musical style in general, I wish you to justify the use of the organ at any way.
Please, feel free to explore the historical circumstances for the organ. Then try to tell me about it.
The National Forum of Greek Orthodox Church Musicians recognizes that the use of the organ in our parishes, either as an accompaniment for the choir or as background music during services, is an element introduced into the Greek Orthodox Church in America after the beginning of the 20th century. Further, the Forum understands that the traditional form of music for Orthodox music is the unaccompanied human voice.
However, since the majority of choirs throughout America are composed of volunteer singers, many of whom lack formal musical training, we accept the fact that the organ has become a necessary adjunct to the choir and to congregational singing --- primarily to maintain accurate intonation, to support the vocal sound if the choir lacks proper balance between sections, or to perform an independent accompaniment if such is provided in the composition. Such situations, we feel, constitute judicious and musically intelligent uses of the organ, provided they do not disrupt or overpower the voices, nor introduce a musical element that is not conducive to prayer and meditation.
Please excuse the late reply, but great example which I can totally understand. But I don't think it quite applies as analogously as your post suggests. It is quite different to replace (or perhaps support) a single, (probably) elderly chanter with limited ablilities and to replace an entire western choir which can perform the liturgy but in a different style. I didn't see the liturgy, but it doesn't sound as though they didn't know the order of the hierarchical liturgy. From a pastoral (and even a basic common sense) perspective, I don't it would be reasonable to expect the western choir to step down. It is demands such as these, which unfortunately stereotype chanters as irrational absolutists.
Serious allegations of all types can be found in abundance in Psaltologion and within some psaltic circles. Are they substantiated here? Regardless of our allegiances, no matter how strong and loyal, rules of fair play will always delineate any debate or discussion. I don't think it's fair to accuse an entire group saying, the "choir's singers weren't orthodox" without any supporting information.
I will continue to defend the National Forum from what I consider to be uncivil, inappropriate, or unfair attacks.
But of course I did not justify the use of the organ because I don't think it's possible to do so ... at least within a Christian Orthodox context.
Dear colleague domesticus and others, please look at the following attempt to justify the use of the organ from the following National Forum Position Statement Regarding THE USE OF THE ORGAN from here ... http://www.churchmusic.goarch.org/assets/files/PP_Organ_Use.pdf
Necessary? Hm...
How were Christian Orthodox liturgies performed for all the centuries before the 20th century American use of the organ? Is it really a matter of necessity, as if without the organ everything will fall apart? Or is it a matter of we like this foreign musical style?
Was the organ first introduced as a "necessary adjuct"? Or because it was a exciting, new way in which we could assimilate our religious culture within the broader culture? Perhaps we should explore our authentic, cultural, and religious identity prior to this most recent innovation.
Your thoughts y'all?
Sincerely,
Taso
P.S. At the bottom of this document, it states that this Position Statement was (Adopted 6/85). Perhaps we need to update it?
But, of course it applies. Since the western choir didn't have the ability or special knowledge to follow the same way of chanting responding to the clergy, they had to step down.
I say again the difference between the chioir and the clergy was simply vast.
The above allegations were written here (8th and 9th posts). Feel free to discuss them with the specific members for further details..
Πρέπει να πούμε ότι η χορωδία που έψαλλε στην Θεία Λειτουργία ήταν οργανωμένη, δυναμική και συντονισμένη. Κατα την γνώμη μου όμως δεν συνάδουν με Πολυαρχιερατική (με καμία ακολουθία στην Βυζαντινή Ορθοδοξία αλλά αυτό είναι μάλλον άλλο θέμα) Θεία Λειτουργία, δυτικά ακούσματα και διαστήματα Τετάρτης σε πλ. Β΄! Αυτό όμως που με ξάφνιασε και με ενόχλησε πρέπει να πω, ήταν ότι μετά το πέρας της Λειτουργίας ετυχε να ειμαι στο Σολέα και παρακολούθησα την χορωδία που κατέβηκε να λάβει Αντίδωρο, μα δεν είδα κανεναν και καμία στα 5 Λεπτα που στεκομουν εκει να σταυροκοπηθεί ή να ασπασθεί την χείρα του αρχιεπισκόπου που το μοίραζε! Κάποιες "κακές γλώσσες" μου είπαν μετέπειτα ότι αυτή η χορωδία είχε προσκληθεί-όπως και ο Δρ. Καράνος- να ψάλλει ειδικά για αυτήν την Λειτουργία και ότι αυτοί οι επαγγελματίες χορωδοί πιθανότατα δεν είναι καν Ορθόδοξοι στην πλειοψηφία τους!
Η αλήθεια είναι όπως την λέει ο κ. Θεοδωρίδης: η χορωδία αυτή είναι επαγγελματική από ανέκαθεν, και μάλιστα τα πλείστον των μελών της είναι επαγγελματικοί τραγουδιστές από την Μετροπόλιταν Όπερα της Νέας Υόρκης που πληρώνονται από την εκκλησία! Και αυτό, αγαπητοί μου, είναι το ρεζίλι και το χάλι μας, που αυτός ο Καθεδρικός ναός, ο πλέον ΕΠΙΣΗΜΟΣ (ας το πούμε και ο "πρώτος" - στην "τάξη", εννοώ) ναός της Αρχιεπισκοπής Αμερικής, ΔΕΝ υποστηρίζει την επίσημη μουσική της Ορθοδοξίας, δηλαδή, την Βυζαντινή, παρά προτιμεί την δυτικοτετραφωνικοκανταδόρικη μουσική, με τις στριγλιές των σοπράνων και το βομβοειδές αρμόνιο. Αντί να είναι το ΠΑΡΑΔΕΙΓΜΑ για όλες τις άλλες ενορίες της Αμερικής, ο Αρχιεπισκοπικός Ναός της Αγίας Τριάδος στην Νέα Υόρκη κάνει το αντίθετο... και κοκορεύονται για την τόσο οραία χορωδία που έχουνε!! Τρομάρα τους...
Απόστολος
Υ.Γ. Με συγχωρείτε, αδελφοί μου, αλλά όπως θα έχετε καταλάβει, είμαστε τρεις κι' ο κούκος που φτίνουμε αίμα για να κάνουμε κάτι σωστό εδώ στην Αμερική όσον αφορά την Βυζαντινή Μουσική, και οι ίδιοι οι "επίσημες δυνάμεις", ως φαίνεται, μας πολεμούν και μας πετάνε στην γωνία. Δεν ντρεπόμαστε, λίγο, να έρχεται ο Ιερώνημος στην Αμερική (αφού και στον ίδιο τον Πατριάρχη κάνανε το ίδιο!) και να βάζουνε ότι το πιο ξένο προς την Ορθοδοξία στις Λειτουργίες ΓΙΑΤΙ;;; Για να "δείξουμε" τι έχουμε;; Η επιδεί ντρεπόμαστε για την παράδοσή μας; Απίστευτο...
I alredy have read the above article. The use of organ is a reality, as I see it. But I don't know if it's an arificial reality any more or some kind of politicking.
Also there 's no middle ground between organ and akolouthia. You keep it or you donate it to a catholic church. After this maybe a discussion about polyphony or traditional chanting can be initiated.
So what if a bride or many brides requests an organ be played? Is this some kind of an excuse?
Statistics showing how many parishes across the Arch. of America regularly use the organ probably don't exist. But I would venture to say that within the last 25 years or so, organ use has declined. Some priests I know have continued to support the western musical style, but have asked their choirs to discontinue using the organ for Sunday services.
In several parishes I know, the organ is exclusively used for weddings where the couple (usually the bride) requests an organ be played for her entrance and exit.
....
So what if a bride or many brides requests an organ be played? Is this some kind of an excuse?
Dear TG-
A number of reasons:
1) Orthodox who do not know the traditions of the sacraments.
2) Parents who want to see principessa walking down the aisle like a prima donna
3) Principessa wanting to be the center of the show
This is a matter of failure to educate as well as secularism in the church.
There is a reason why the husband and the wife enter TOGETHER, led by a priest holding their hands joined (THREE HANDS-A TRINITARIAN UNION UNDER GOD) and on the other hand of the priest, the Logos (the Gospel).
Traditionally the bride and groom walk inside an EMPTY church, TOGETHER (in a trinitarian manner-priest/bride/groom) representing a transformed life, a life led by the Logos and guided by the Church. They enter TOGETHER because no man is above the wife and vice versa (the Epistle later comes to tell this).
The Orthodox wedding has deep Christological and even Eschatological meaning and symbolism that are the "human" part of the mystery.
Sadly, this is never taught by parents or priests, because they are never taught about it.
Also, priests do not routinely offer the traditional wedding at the consultation phase of the pre-wedding events. Either they don't know it themselves, or they consider that it is "un-American".
But, as you stated, we are digressing
NG
Thanks Nick. This addresses the reasons, I guess, as far as why people don't have traditional Orthodox rubrics, etc, at their weddings. But I guess part of my question that I'm still wondering about is why things like this are permitted at all during the wedding service. If a choir director wanted to have a string quartet accompany the choir during the liturgy [I hope] they would be met with a flat "no" from the priest, as well as anyone within earshot who happened to hear their proposal. Hopefully we can say the same for other mysteries and services. So, if this is the case, why is it suddenly that, during wedding services, we suddenly toss all of our canons to the wind and bring CD players and pianos and string quartets into the church? Why do we suddenly bend the rules when it comes to this particular service? Because if the priest says no, the couple will just go get married elsewhere? (Perhaps.)
It just seems like, if it is the "policy" of the Orthodox Church (at least the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America, with the exception of the GOA and the rare Antiochian church) to not have any instrumental "accompaniment" during worship (i.e. organs), it doesn't make sense for this all to go down the tubes because two people are getting married.
Maybe someone can move this to a new topic...
It just seems like, if it is the "policy" of the Orthodox Church (at least the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America, with the exception of the GOA and the rare Antiochian church) to not have any instrumental "accompaniment" during worship (i.e. organs), it doesn't make sense for this all to go down the tubes because two people are getting married.
@Romanos4
You state:
Knowledge of the typikon should be prerequisite for anyone taking a leadership role in our liturgical worship - can't the National Forum at the very least advocate that?
In their defense, they have been publishing the Liturgical Guidebook and associated guides. And lately, it's become very faithful to the standard of the Typikon of Violakis.
Historically, the Liturgical Guidebook that the Forum has published for years was full of errors and it reflected a lack of appreciation of the Typikon.
It took Mr. Apostolos Combitsis and I to OFFER OUR SERVICE and DIAKONIA to the Forum about 8 years ago, to have all that corrected, and often, reaching out to the individuals responsible for putting the guidebook together to assist them in understanding WHY certain practices were so.
Until two years ago, we used to receive advance pre-prints to look over. Curiously, for the past two years, we have been dropped. No matter, we were happy to participate in establishing the historically-accurate typika directives that now guide the musicians using theh LB. Eventually, one develops a "grid" that automatically generates any Typikon covering all possible situations and quite possibly those responsible have adapted the "grid" approach.
In spite of even the LB's existence, there are choirs that don't even look at it.
NG
For what it's worth - I am pleased that there will be only chant at my wedding in August ...
...
Also, I 've read a post above that the choir's singers weren't orthodox. IF it's true, I think it's a very serious allegation ...
...
Serious allegations of all types can be found in abundance in Psaltologion and within some psaltic circles. Are they substantiated here? Regardless of our allegiances, no matter how strong and loyal, rules of fair play will always delineate any debate or discussion. I don't think it's fair to accuse an entire group saying, the "choir's singers weren't orthodox" without any supporting information.